The Vision & Backstory

Host: Heather Gates, LinkedIn
Guest: Nash Gates, LinkedIn

Summary
In the first episode of the “Stand in the &” podcast, host Heather Gates introduces the concept of embracing the complexity of the human experience. Joined by her son Nash, they discuss the importance of acknowledging the 'and' in life, where multiple truths coexist. Heather shares her journey of creating this podcast as a platform for honest conversations about human complexity, where we get stuck, and how we find forward – individually & collectively. The episode emphasizes the significance of curiosity and the hope that the podcast helps others feel seen and supported.

Takeaways
•The 'and' represents the complexity of human experience.
•Embracing the 'and' allows for multiple truths to coexist.
•The podcast aims to help listeners feel seen and understood.
•Fear and uncertainty are natural parts of the journey.
•Curiosity helps us navigate complexity and find solutions.

Chapters
•00:00 Introduction to the Podcast & Its Purpose
•02:13 The Journey of Motherhood & Business
•05:56 Embracing the 'And': Understanding Complexity
•13:04 The Origin of 'Stand in the &'
•17:32 Why a Podcast? The Desire to Share and Learn
•27:11 The Role of a Strategy Partner
•33:49 Embracing Uncertainty & Complexity
•39:31 Navigating the Human Experience
•44:48 The Journey of Self-Discovery
•49:09 Connecting with the Audience

Connect About the Podcast
Email us with your ideas and feedback at connect@standintheand.com
Visit the Podcast for more episodes
See what we’re up to on Instagram

To request strategy partner & facilitation support from Human-Centered Strategy, visit us online at https://human-centeredstrategy.com/contact/

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to the Podcast & Its Purpose
• 2:13 The Journey of Motherhood & Business
• 5:56 Embracing the 'And': Understanding Complexity
• 13:04 The Origin of 'Stand in the &'
• 17:32 Why a Podcast? The Desire to Share and Learn
• 27:11 The Role of a Strategy Partner
• 33:49 Embracing Uncertainty & Complexity
• 39:31 Navigating the Human Experience
• 44:48 The Journey of Self-Discovery
• 49:09 Connecting with the Audience

Transcript

Heather (00:05.55)
Hello, this is Heather Gates and I welcome you to the Stand in the And podcast, where we have honest conversations about the messy complexity of the human experience, where we get stuck and how we find forward in the and of it all where many things are true at once. This podcast is designed especially for those of us who want to make things more beautiful and better for everyone and sometimes need reminding that we are human too. I'm so glad you're here.

Welcome to episode one, y'all. It has been a long time coming. I'm excited. I'm really nervous also to be here with everybody today. And this first episode is extra special. So this one's going to feel a little bit different than the norm. I have a very special guest joining me today. One of my favorite conversationalists, my son Nash. Say hey.

Hey.

Say hey to the people. We don't know what to call y'all yet. You know, our audience. So, I think it could be the y'alls or the Anders. Okay. Maybe we'll see. So we're still working on it. is there anything you want to say more about who you are?

Hey people, good to be here.

Nash (01:10.242)
to say it's not the yalls.

Nash (01:15.022)
I think it's either of those.

Nash (01:24.436)
I think, I mean, I'm her kid. I thought I am the one that's going to get a matching and tattoo so I feel about as well equipped for this conversation as one can.

committed and are where are you situated in life? Like how old are you?

I am 17. I'm going to be a senior in high school. I am looking to go into public health just like mom. She has given me lot of good connections that I'm exploring and I have a paid internship right now with some great people at the Western North Carolina Health Network. And it's summer break so I'm about to head down to the beach and go party.

really? That's not what I thought was about to happen.

I'm gonna go fish and...

Nash (02:08.398)
Sit in the sun.

do teenager things. Well, I'm very grateful. This is quite a full circle moment for me, as you know, to have you with me today. I've told you I'm not going to cry on this podcast, so I'll be brief about this.

I've already said you're good to cry. It happens.

y'all, I have been talking about doing this for at least five years, if not more than this.

since we've been having this conversation since probably sixth grade.

Heather (02:38.782)
So to be here with you and not even like beyond the podcast. So I accidentally built a business 18 years ago, trying to stand in the end of view with you really, right? Like trying to figure out how to maintain what I care and love about my work, about trying to figure out how to be a mom and patching all that together. So to fast forward to 18 years,

You know, and here we are sitting together in my office, in the business, doing this just feels, um, yeah, it feels, just, it, yeah, I don't, I'm at a loss for words. It's so Andy. Um, so we'll do it. Let's do a check-in, you know, like what, ands you're standing in today. So I've already said, I'm, I'm excited to be here.

I would say nervous, to me the energy of excited and nervous kind of feel the same. So I have a lot of energy about today and I feel so grateful.

It's been a long time coming.

Yeah, grateful. I mean, you know, not everybody else knows yet, but it's just been a lot of work for me to get up the courage calluses. You hear my voice crack, my voice crack even to say that. as some, it's, don't think people would expect it, but as somebody who presents a lot and speaks a lot and works a lot with people, have a lot of fear around this, around sharing my voice specifically around

Heather(04:13.87)
kind of having voice in a way that we're now gonna like launch out and let people judge. So I've had, I've held this big fire for this and fear for this together at the same time. And the scales are tilted enough more towards the fire than the fear. And it's taken a lot of really intentional, mean, you know this, you've heard me like practicing saying things, having to listen to myself talk.

was about say, it's for per-

Nash (04:42.952)
she has been talking about and practice, I'm not going to say practicing podcast episodes, but recording herself talk to get more comfortable since I was in middle school and she was waiting to pick me up in the

Yeah, I don't know. There's a lot that we won't get into all the details there about.

But yeah, is a this is a good, a good.

It's the moment and it's so sweet that you are the person that is here. What and are you standing in today as you join?

Well, am, I'm glad we're finally doing it. So that's my positive and the reason I want to be here is because we've been having this conversation for half a decade.

Heather (05:30.286)
That makes me sound like I get it together. Oh. Yeah, it's been a minute.

but like it's been a it's been a minute took a lot of preparation yeah and I've grown up listening to you talk about the and and talking about the end to you I talk about the end other people whoop whoop and I'm ready to get on the road and get to the beach

And, yeah, I feel you. And we're going to try to settle into this conversation. Yeah, we're going to do this and hold the energy of all of it. So like I said, this one will be a different. So what I imagine for the podcast as we move forward is it's conversations with guests around the tensions that they're holding and the tools that they use to manage them.

in a context where many things can be true at the same time. So a lot more conversational, inviting folks on different types. But I know that today more you imagine that you are interviewing me about this.

I've been told. I'm good. We can just

Heather (06:29.934)
Okay, well let's ask questions. Let's get started because I do want especially since this is episode one it's more like feels like episode zero you know? feels like

lying out to anybody who's listening what you're going to be talking about.

You said lying out. was like, I hope that's not what we're about to do. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. About what the point of this is. It's a little bit of the backstory I feel like the, the prereq about what this is trying to be about. So let me turn it over to you. You know, I don't surrender well, so I'm standing in the end of vulnerability by wanting to be in control of this. So what questions do you have for me?

laying

Nash (07:10.274)
All right, so your podcast is called Stand in the And. You preach a lot in both your work and your personal life about embracing the and. What does that mean to you? Where did that come from?

Heather (07:25.71)
So just the and part. When I say now embrace the and and y'all, I think I'm going to learn as much from this podcast as I feel like I know coming into it. So I want to say that I'm not coming at this with I have all the answers and I have it figured out and I want to now tell everyone I am insatiably curious about this place, this messiness that is the human experience. The and.

to me reflects and means and honors that many things can be true at the same time. I find that to be the case inside of us and among us. I can be excited and nervous. I can be grateful to be here and really want to be at the beach. All of that can be true at the same time. So when I say embrace the and, think it's an honor, embrace that

Humans are complex. I think it feels so important. And I too am like, why am I still talking about this? Because, know, I talk about a lot of things and sometimes I get tired of it and it moves on. But this one is stuck around. And I think that's part of what's drawing me to this is I can't stop talking about it. I think because it feels so counter to maybe what we normally hear about. Where are you this or are this? And it feels so true to me over and over and over.

that it's so often a both and reality. So I to shine a light on that. I think it helps normalize the experience that we're all having to tell the truth about the complexity of our feelings, our experiences, our behaviors, our context, all of it. So when I say embrace the and too, part of that is that honoring those things,

sometimes create, there's tension among them. Sometimes we're trying to live into values that sometimes feel like they conflict with each other, or it feels hard and it feels like you want to try to pick one to relieve some of that tension. So it's a bit of an invitation. So the embrace, when I say embrace the and, it's a bit of an invitation and a permission to hold all that energy. That it's okay, we can handle it.

Heather (09:52.814)
Like the human capacity is big enough and now it feels ick and sticky. And I'm working on this all the time. Part of, think I started talking about this when I was in a previous leadership position. You know, we've talked, we've joked some about the journey that we've been on together and raising kids, you know, being a mom and all that time, but I was in such a place. So probably rooted in perfectionism.

I talk all the time about being a recovering perfectionist. So I operated for a very long time in this sort of perfectionist mindset of, right, you're amazing or shitty. There's like a right way to do it and there's everything else. A very much kind of right, wrong, good, bad, am I a good mom or not? And so often the reality, especially I think when I was trying to juggle

leadership and parenting and all of that, I felt not good enough at everything. If I wasn't, because you can't be perfect at everything because perfection is not real. So I came into this real dissonant like feeling in my own way and anxiety and all the things that get churned up when you feel like you're being held to a standard that doesn't exist. I don't remember the initial kind of

opening around this, but this insight then developed of what if it was possible that even if I wasn't perfect at everything at work and perfect at everything at home, that I could be a good mom and still not have remembered to pack you a lunch or accidentally sit prunes to elementary school for snack.

That wasn't me. That was it.

Heather (11:39.47)
Yeah, sorry about that sister. this, this considering another way, part of perhaps healing my own tendency of perfectionism and kind of the anxiety and stuff that comes up with that. I think starting with more of that and can I let more than one thing? So that's a situation and we'll talk a lot more about this today and beyond today in the months ahead.

but we get stuck in the and in a number of ways. And in that case, I was kind of stuck on the outside of the and. I was stuck not seeing that many things could be true. So you're seeing one part and typically I find that we see the less generous part. You see the bad, but you get stuck on the bad to go, and what if this also is true about me as a mom, along with I forgot the thing.

Yeah, you'll see the bed.

Heather (12:33.922)
So expands it, then sometimes we're in an and, and we know we're getting squeezed. We know we're getting squeezed because we want to hold empathy and accountability and it feels impossible and not really sure how to manage all that. So I think it shows up in different ways, kind of we're on the outside or the inside, but we get stuck in it or outside of it if we don't honor that. So that's where kind of the original birth, I guess, story of the and for me is

in my own leadership experience and my own meeting of leadership in life and needing a broader frame to step into as a counter somewhat to perfectionism. And then over time, it's turned into a lot of different things. I think as a facilitator, when I'm in group settings, it's also about embracing the end of different opinions than ours or embracing different perspectives on a situation. There's

a lot of complexity and I find as somebody who works in complexity and with humans my whole career, our tendency is to want to really oversimplify because it's easier. So embrace it is like, let it be a little messy and a little hard. And there's a specific story about where stand and the end came from, but I don't know if that's for now, if you want to ask them.

Go for it. Where did Stand in the End come from?

Stand in the and came from, so we already have in the and like swirling around in my head and in our house and everywhere and symbols everywhere. Like that's the precursor. Nope. So this is where this ampersand comes. So the story starts with, we just talk about the and a lot and then it's COVID. So in COVID, in the context of COVID where I'd been doing client work,

Nash (14:06.84)
at Ampersand's in our hallway.

Heather (14:22.41)
And then pretty immediately felt sidelined because the work I was doing wasn't the most important. I felt lots of uncertainty and not sure what to do. I had some experience. I didn't know how to use it in that class. I just felt this kind of churn of I don't know what to do. At the time reread. It's actually a book that Oprah wrote and somewhere there's something in there.

where the guidance that she was getting or given at the time was to just stand. So I was reading that, just stand and out of me comes in the end. And I took that pretty literally as like been my directive for how I was gonna navigate that tricky moment. I was like, I don't know what else to do. So I'm gonna just stand in the end of this, which is I'm just gonna show up. Cause stand for me, I think it's really important. It's not literally.

You know, for the purposes of this podcast, I don't mean it's actually stand, right? Not everybody can stand. So it's more about the showing up. Y'all will learn. I will do a lot of things to try to pump myself up to align with my intentions. So with that inner sort of guide and compass to keep showing up, just stand in the end of this, stand in the end of the uncertainty and the complexity with my family, with my clients. I, as you just mentioned, bought the largest canvas that

Michaels will sell and painted a giant and sign. Well, this was in the beginning. This is the early story. Before the obsession got fueled more, I painted a giant and sign and ordered a standing desk because this is a point where I was on,

Couple of them.

Nash (16:00.142)
didn't realize that's for the standing desk.

Right. I I did in-person work and now all of a sudden everything's on Zoom. So I said, I'm going to put a and sign behind me so that every time I'm on a Zoom call, I have to look at it. Right. Because in the screen that you see of yourself, you see, and I bought a standing desk. said, I'm literally going to stand in the end to remind myself that that is my intention. That's where the standing desk.

came from that I still use today. Anybody who's met with me knows that I still have this giant Anson behind me. And it is where I still continue. I mean, I think I was in therapy yesterday talking about this and probably getting ready for this podcast to show up in what is, you know, for me, usually some really hard forward intention to do something. And it always comes with

I'm often showing up with a pretty solid side of fear. so yeah, I think stand in the end dates back in those paintings and yes, there's now another one in our house and there are a couple other people around town who have them and we now have stickers that say stand in the end and we're going to start selling mugs. So I feel really strongly about it and we'll talk more. sure about that, but that's the

origin story. Backstory. That's why there's so many hand paintings.

Nash (17:26.358)
The backstory.

Nash (17:31.47)
So we know where it comes from and what it means to you. You've listed a couple examples of how you personally show up in the end, which we can loop back to later. But why do you want to share this with people and why a podcast specifically? Why don't you just want to go give seminars on it? Why don't you go, I mean, we talked briefly in the past about doing a Ted Talk on the end.

Okay, so why do I want to talk about it? And then why the podcast?

Heather (18:03.02)
I don't know that I have the answers to all of your questions.

Heather (18:10.766)
Why does this get me so pumped up? I think, and we'll see what the podcast reveals about what else is true. I feel so passionately about

People who show up in the world with their whole hearts and minds trying to make things better or more beautiful for people.

Heather (18:40.462)
capturing all the energy possible in service to that thing. And what I know to be true is we can get real stuck in the end if we don't see it. Right. It's like happening and we can be spinning in it. my hope, and this is a theory, theory, hypothesis, I'll never get that right. My curiosity is, it helpful to talk about it? I find it helpful to name it.

Because then you can say, this is why I'm feeling this way. I'm stuck in this. What are the things you can get curious about it differently? Maybe it's that I've learned so much about how to get unstuck myself that I want to help share some of that. also think I'm because it's a place that I get stuck. I want to talk to other people and learn about their tools. It just feels and when I'm talking, I know it resonates with people. I

It's everywhere, you can't escape it.

Heather (20:09.196)
And to the extent that talking about this kind of complexity helps people feel seen and then how we talk not just about acknowledging it, but how we navigate it. What are the tools we use to navigate it can help people feel supported. You know, I love people pretty much more than anything. And if

If you ask what her favorite animal is, she will say, humans.

I'm not saying it's not a valid answer love, but it is your answer

And y'all, I just want you to flourish deep in my bones. I believe in people. I believe in the potential for people. I believe in our potential for when we come together to do things. So anything I can figure out to help us talk about how to get unstuck on our way to do that, I'm here for it. So we'll see. Why podcast?

I mean, it's...

Heather (21:08.43)
I don't know. I think it will be fun. Okay, point one, I love talking to people.

truth.

So when you love people and you love talking to people, it seems like it would be just so fun to get together with people that I know and admire or I'm curious about and have conversations about this thing that I'm curious about. It's an interesting platform. I think it also, there's a lot of autonomy we can put out there what we want to and what we don't. So that feels helpful.

It feels like a conversation, which I I like this way of podcasts versus just me talking because I like the interaction of it.

you just have a conversation with a big metal thing in front of your face.

Heather (21:52.05)
right. It feels totally natural. I wear headphones all the time for work anyway. And there is a piece of it, I'm sure, that for me is podcasts because it terrifies me.

because it's scary.

Because it's scary. Because I talk about the and. I mean, in all of my facilitations in the beginning, we now talk about embracing the end. So I've talked about this in like two actual people in real life. But there's something scary to me about having my voice recorded, perhaps because it means I'm going to have to listen to it or hear it. And I've had judgment about that. So there's something about this platform specifically that is a little scary.

for years.

Heather (22:37.184)
and I tend to not want to be confined by my fear. So it's a little bit of step toward fear. And just the sharing, I don't have any content, not that I don't get, let me say that differently. I get feedback now in the work that I do. This feels a little more personal. So I'm about to get perhaps feedback on

kind of the most honest version of myself that I can conjure up and feel comfortable with. And that just feels vulnerable and a little bit scary. And, um, yeah. So I I don't really know.

That's good answer. I because it scares you. a good, you're pushing a comfort zone.

Well, a lot of what there's, there's some magic alchemy to me in the place. And I think I said this maybe in the beginning of where my curiosity and excitement about it with a dash of it scares me is a place where I continue to push and get curious because I find every time that I lean like face toward what scares me, I'll learn something about myself and it changes me.

Because we're not really talking about the kind of fear that is actually in danger, right? We have to know the difference. Fear is important. It's an important teacher. And there's a different kind of fear. Maybe it's anxiety. I may be using the wrong words.

Nash (24:08.014)
They're so intertwined, you can't separate.

Well, but it's like this sort of fake fear or some of it's true, right? There is risk for sharing truth in particular and it varies.

Anyway. think that calling it a fake fear isn't maybe the right choice of words because it is your fear. It can't be fake because it's so unique to each individual's experience. So that's your fear. It's not a fake fear. You may say it's not necessarily a valid thing to be afraid of because the worst that happens is you listen to it and you don't post it. I mean, or someone

I can go down. Listen, I can go zero to crack the universe in two seconds about all the ways that can.

think I know someone listens to your voice and the world explodes. But... And...

Heather (24:58.574)
Nice.

We can appreciate the, like you were saying, mean it's a podcast. You're able to put out what you want to put out.

Yeah, I don't and appreciate that. Thank you for the reflection and the acknowledgement that my fear is real. So appreciate that feeling, feeling seen. I really do sit here today, primarily in a place of real readiness. So, and that feels exciting to me. Again, it's like the lean in to do this and the different person that I am today that can can do it and hear my voice and we're going to launch it and we're going to invite people and to let it feel.

interesting and joyful because uncertainty so much I think of what we're often afraid of is the uncertainty, right? It's the what is going to happen. And often, right, we have, I'm nerdy enough to say words and not, right, probably get them all right, but like, we have a negativity bias usually, so it keeps us alive. So typically, our brain's going to fill in the gaps of the story in a negative way. Like,

We have uncertainty and now what are all the bad things get happen? Rarely is anybody on autopilot to go, there's uncertainty. What are all the amazing things that might happen in that space? Right? That's fair. So I actually sit out of a lot of intentional work. I sit here with you right now going, what might happen? What's the awesome thing? new cool people are out there that I'm going to meet?

Nash (26:29.646)
That's the awesome thing that's going to happen.

Heather (26:36.61)
because of this, what new insight, what new understanding am I going to have about myself? Who are we going to help feel seen? Who's going to think differently about something and how might that open up? There's a lot that could happen that's pretty awesome. So that's when I say sometimes we get stuck on the outside of the and is when we're only seeing that one side. So I'm excited to sit here in a mostly, you know, kind of I'm hopeful.

Just.

But we'll see. Yeah, we're gonna see what happens.

So we spoke a little bit about, we're gonna change gears for a second. We spoke a little bit about, or you spoke a little bit about, you said a previous leadership role. We've stated that you have your own business, but the y'alls listening don't really know what that is. So what gives you, what is your, not position of authority, or what gives you, I'm not gonna say what gives you the right to speak on the end, because everyone experiences it. But A, what do you do?

that makes you so people-y. Like, how do you interact with people on a daily basis in your job? So what is your job? How do you people in that? And what gives you...

Nash (27:53.954)
Why do you feel that you have the authority to talk about the end? Is it just through experiencing so much of why? Yeah, why you? After we state we-

me.

Heather (28:03.374)
What is my job? Gosh, anybody out there who has a job that's hard to explain, like I hope you're feeling right now. So I would say that I am a strategy partner and facilitator and I help leaders and teams build connection and strategy and complexity. And you'll go, what did you actually just say? What do you really do? I coach leaders. So I work with leaders one-on-one.

I work with teams within organizations. work with multi-agency partnerships. I help people get unstuck so that they can create, I sometimes help them create a path forward to the vision that they have, either for themselves, for their community, for their organization. But I'm often in a place of trying to help people find forward. I often call myself a strategy doula, right? I'm here to help them kind of

gather the insights and share the thoughts and have the ideas. I'm not the consultant type that's going to come in and tell you what to do. I approach it as, you know, people are the experts in their own context and their experience and I'm here to help be a support alongside that. So my job is to work with people and in a business, so in the health lane.

So I work exclusively in public health, community health and wellbeing. So I'm working with organizations who have people in their mission, which means every step of their ecosystem is people, right? All businesses, like if you're making tractors, you have a team, but you're eventually making a product. I work with people who work with people who work with people to help people. It's people at every step.

I mean, formally I have degrees in biomedical science and in public health. I don't think that's what credentials me to talk about this. I don't think that they talked about the end when I was in school, perhaps. Yeah, I don't come at this from a place of feeling like, because there certainly are people, researchers who do work on paradox and human emotion. I'm not a researcher. I'm not studying this.

Nash (30:09.326)
They didn't talk about the

Heather (30:29.728)
aside from in a very in-person working with people way. So I would say as far as what qualifies me here, I feel like I'm in a job interview. What makes you the candidate? Why are you the best? are you the best? Y'all, I don't know that I am. I just know that this idea will not go away inside of me and I feel nine months pregnant with it. So we're going to try to birth it and see what happens. I do have a lot of connectivity to.

Thanks for

Heather (30:57.934)
I think curiosity. have a lot of curiosity about this and I am a, like, I'm a convener for my role. So I really want this podcast a bit to feel like a gathering. know, convening a conversation, which is what I do. And I'm coming at it with the same sort of ground rules and kind of container that I would in a group, right? We're humans, not robots. We're going to embrace the end. We're not going to dehumanize, you know, these things that I think create

the structure to have honest conversations. So we'll see.

I think a lot of what gives you the authority or position to speak on this is your first, the answer to your, your answer to my first question of those last two, the what do you do and how much of that is human centered. I mean, your centered strategy, that's the business. You are a people person and I feel like a lot of the end is just acknowledging that everyone's story is a little bit.

It's the business.

Nash (32:05.474)
their own, not a little bit their own, a lot their own and a little bit similar to everyone else's story.

Yeah, we're the same in that we're all different.

Yeah, which is, it's very cliche. We've heard it a million times from the books about caterpillars and the fish who gives away all their shiny scales, but it's such a deeply ingrained human characteristic that I feel like it's easy to overlook it unless your job and your life is around people. So someone who's, like you said, the tractor salesman. We need the tractor salesman to plant our blueberries.

I think you need them to sell your tractors. Correct. Not plant your

Well, we need the tractors from the Tractor Establishment Department.

Heather (32:51.88)
Not to pick.

The point is, you are better equipped to have this conversation than the tractor salesman. And maybe not. Maybe the tractor salesman has more of a and, not but, the tractor salesman has a different outlook due to his typical clientele.

Yeah, I think it's more like, it's more about what you're really excited about. So maybe it's that. don't, it doesn't feel, it feels kind of itchy to me to try to want to compare myself to anybody else and be more qualified or not. I'll just say I'm excited about it and I'm passionate about it. And I think it's interesting to talk about. And hopefully that feels interesting for other people to want to, yeah, hear about too. So I think it's that. And I mean, truly.

I've spent my entire career being curious about people. So in my undergraduate work, was in biomedical science. It was more around like the micro level of understanding. I'm, I think, very curious about how humans work. Maybe it's like about me, what are we doing? How does all this work? On and the inside. On the outside and the inside, the facts and feels, all of it. I'm so curious about humans and how it works. So I have been curious about that for

What's the math on that? old am I? I don't know. 20, 30 years? Yeah, something like So that curiosity collects things, right? Collects theories and understandings and leads you to more curiosity. Yeah, I don't know. I care a lot and I'm excited about it. I don't know. And I'm I'm just saying, I don't think there's an answer. I think it feels restrictive and I think part of

Nash (34:30.983)
After she gives the very detailed explanation.

Heather (34:38.318)
Part of actually what keeps people from doing things like this is that very question. Like the nanny's that I hear in my head this morning when I told you I was like having sweaty pits about this was, who are you to do this? Who cares? Who are you to do this? And so that's why part of me is like, I don't know, but I'm doing it.

Let's talk about that. Who cares? So you're recording your voice and putting it out to whoever wants to listen to it. What is the goal? Obviously, not. We have spoken about how the goal of all of this and you feel that your goal just period is to better the human experience for as many people as possible in as many ways as possible, whatever that looks like. This podcast specifically, how do you envision

the podcast, are people going to listen to this and realize that there is an end and that they should or can embrace it themselves? Are they going to... I mean...

That's where we just see, right? So that's the uncertainty of it. It doesn't matter to me. I don't know. That's fair. Yeah. I think the part of the why of it is I want to and I want to try and I want to see. And there are certain points where you can't think your way to the answer, right? I can no longer like dry erase board, whiteboard out like what might happen or that at a certain point you have to try things and do things.

Right, when you meet the edge of uncertainty past what you can predict or know, like some things are not knowable.

Nash (36:15.288)
You just put, yeah, you just gotta put the voice out there.

Yeah, so I have some ideas just like we talked about a second ago about how it could go poorly and how maybe it'll be helpful, but you can't really know.

Well, give us a couple ideas. How could it be awesome? We know that the universe can explode, obviously, if we do this wrong. If we click the wrong buttons, the sun's gonna crash into us.

We accidentally launched it and get all that stuff.

What is the awesome

Heather (36:43.63)
Yeah. And again, I think we talked some about this earlier, but I hope that our conversations around the and will help.

Someone feels seen in the complexity that they are experiencing and haven't really heard spoken to directly. So somebody feels seen, they feel a little lighter. So instead of spending all that energy going, I feel this way, what's wrong with me? I'm feeling this and this, what's wrong with me? It must mean I'm a bad leader, must mean I'm a bad mom. If I can pause that whole spiral, do you remember when you little and I talked to you about not adding suck to the suck sandwich? Yeah.

I want to keep the suck sandwich as small as possible and not add all those other layers. If we can name it and understand it and then figure out how to deal with that versus like, yeah, like I just said, what's wrong? Why am I there? All the fields we add about our fields are the things we add about the situation. So if we can help liberate some of that energy so that you can now use that to navigate your complex situation and then like go forth and make things and do strategy that helps people.

Some of it is, is I'm going to conserve some of that energy. Then I'm wasting thinking something's wrong with me or wrong with this context or broken about this instead of saying it's and it's true and it's all true and it gets to all be true. So it's a bit of like release of some stuff is one example that I would give. And another maybe would be that we

get differently curious about a stuck spot and maybe see a solution, right? Maybe you're on a team and something feels sticky or tricky and you're like, well, is it this or is it this? And then somewhere in the end creates this new possibility or path forward that was even cooler, right? Than you can imagine. So that we help by language and by tool sharing.

Heather (38:46.67)
help people feel a little lighter, help people feel seen, perhaps craft some paths forward that they'd not considered. But I hope we hear about it. Yeah. Well, why is that helpful?

Help them feel human. I'll put, before we talk about why that's helpful. Something that I don't think we've explicitly said in the last 40 minutes, but it's 1.35 already. We started what, 57? About 40 minutes.

It's been 40 minutes.

Heather (39:15.938)
Y'all, don't know how long these are supposed to be. So we'll see. We'll see. Feedback welcome.

We've got, I've got one more. Okay.

Okay. So we'll tie it up and then I do want to talk about a little bit about what next and how people can find us and that stuff.

Something you frequently talk about to me and people in the world, maybe the internet hasn't heard you say it but- For sure. You are a human, not a robot. Yeah. So when you're talking about something wrong with me, a good, I don't know about good, I mean, everyone's gonna view this differently, but nothing's gonna be wrong with you because there's nothing to be, there's not a way to be right.

Sure the internet doesn't hear from you.

Nash (39:57.006)
You are so... Just by existing, you're in your own right and your own wrong at the same time.

That we're all and, right, is what you're saying.

It's important to acknowledge that and not that you don't have a blueprint to follow. There's not a human experience guidebook that says, this is the right choice to make, this is the right path to go down, take this fork, not that fork.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, agree. And what we know is true that all of us, depending on a lot of factors, kind of who and where and what context you're born into the world, I do feel like we inherit these like invisible and silent blueprints about what the path is supposed to be. absolutely. Like here's what mothering should look like. Here's what business success looks like. Here's what the...

Yes, who really built that and is in service to you? Probably not if it's not your map. I'm with you that there's not, how can you be wrong if you also can't really be right, but we certainly are taught in culture. Welcome back to Stand in the Hand podcast episode 1.1. 1.1.

Nash (41:11.118)
We just c-

Heather (41:21.698)
So Nash and I, as you know, are doing this podcast and finished it and then realized that about 15 minutes of it was not recorded. So we are standing in the, how are you feeling? What and are you sitting with right now?

That was a good part of the conversation. So I feel like we can turn it into another episode though, because that was talking about blueprints and expectations. I think that's got to be its own thing to give it justice.

So we had a little quick check in here and decided, let's just, I certainly with the energy required to dig deep to do this, I'm sitting with a fair amount of disappointment that the really good conversation that we just had there at the end was not captured. I clearly has escaped my brain about what it even was. So I'm gonna sit with disappointment and commitment because I need

No excuses for this not to happen. And easily could go up. Didn't work. We tried. I'm brave and it didn't work out anyway. Shelve it and start over. But I really want us to close this out. So we're not really sure where we've left off in this. I think we have a sense of it. So I think we just clean slate start with your final question and just pretend we're doing this for the first time. I don't want us to feel like we're trying to recreate a conversation. We'll just let it be new.

The final question is, how do you show up in your life embracing the hand? Do you intentionally try to exist in a state of embracing complexity or does it just come with your innate human experience?

Heather (43:06.05)
And you're asking, you would think I've had practice with this, but I don't remember. You're asking like generally for people? For you. Well, let me start with the people part.

Well, and people. Both.

Nash (43:18.686)
I feel like the answers will be very similar.

Oh, I just, I think it's an important thing maybe just to make sure my intentions are clear that I'm not suggesting that we choose a path that is and versus something else because I believe and I can't wait to hear y'all tell me otherwise, but for the most part it's already true. We don't have to choose it and we do need to choose to see it.

This is about the end, you know, about whether like, it a complexity that, your question was about, is this something I'm like creating or is it there already? And I'm saying, I think the end is what it is in a lot of ways. and we could actually, I would love it if you are somebody out there, y'all who is a neuroscience, not a neuroscientist who could talk to us about our separate brain hemispheres and that we have like part of this, I think is baked in.

about the aim.

Heather (44:21.262)
Right? We have different, pause another episode. We're going to do nerdy things. I'm not going to get down to the neuroscience of the end of things. So I'll say, I believe that there are some parts of this that are just true and we have to understand and see and know about. With that, there's choosing to see them. Certainly when it comes to context and the complexity of us all, that feels different. Some of that is about what we create in our own lives.

The and that I stand in, so there's the facts of it and the feels of it context wise, as you have alluded to already, I'm a business owner and a mom and creative and tinker with a lot of things.

and

Nash (45:02.286)
Yeah, I don't know how much of that got recorded or not. Have we covered this yet? Is this new material?

I like to do a lot of things. So I'm somebody who just in my life as far as doing, I'm also a really big feeler. So I am big thinker, big feeler. So that comes with a lot of complexity and just who I am. And so I think part of this and journey has been a journey to try to make sense of myself.

Heather (45:32.334)
Yeah, I'm strong and sensitive. There's a lot, maybe Phil's TMI for episode number one for people. don't know. We'll talk a lot more about my own ends. think, you know, acknowledged I'm a Gemini and sometimes people are like, oh, okay, that makes sense. I don't know enough about it to know what that helps me understand or not. Somebody else can come on and tell us, but I have a lot of complexity within myself. And so perhaps that's part of what guides me to be Andy.

Andy.

is I think everybody's some version of Andy and my kind of extra pins on who you are. can certainly bring some people on here who would tell you that that is true. Yeah, who knows? We're not. Yeah, it's okay. We're not, I'm not worried about that. I don't have a lot of judgment of self, a lot of acceptance about my own complexity. And that's been a journey. You know, I think truly there are times where I'm like, God, I just want it to feel easier.

And you could bring on some who were

And some people.

Nash (46:31.522)
black and white.

I just want it to feel easier and I'm deeply empathic. I feel a lot and I'm super thinky. So I'm thinking a lot. I'm taking in a lot of information. So just to for me to exist, I'm having to square, which creates a lot of internal conflict. I'm having to square a lot. And perhaps that situates me to be able to see that and help navigate that and other people in other teams.

But I'm looking forward to digging in with our guests about it, their own ands, and then sharing some tools. I think it's one thing to acknowledge it. It's another to say, so what then do you do to find forward in that? We talked earlier about helping people kind of find forward from the stuck and into possibility. So how do you, how do we navigate that? And I'll share right here the tools that I'm using. What are other people using? I hope we're all learning from each other.

about how to human and how to flourish. I'm mostly interested in that, which I think we've said before. It's less to me, you know, this is my...

one shot, like life, you know, not just like this podcast, like, I'm, I want to feel like when I'm done with this version of this life that I've left it all, left it all on the field. So I'm interested in really doing service to what I feel truly is the gift. So often human humaning feels

Heather (48:09.358)
heavy and hard in this. And I want to navigate that and support others and be in community so we can navigate. All your tinkering around with your mic is making funny sounds. I know. Okay. What was I talking about? Oh, humaning can be hard and this is our chance. This is not the dress rehearsal. So I want us to flourish. I want us to...

was putting it there.

Heather (48:36.46)
stand together and work together and understand each other the best we can and accept ourselves the best we can so we can do awesome stuff, make beautiful art, build strategy that helps heal. And we have big work to do and I hope that we can do that together. So I think we'll try to tie a bow on this and let me talk about some of the next step stuff. Does that feel good to you?

Yeah. Okay. Talk about contact.

Yes. So if you want to reach out to us, you can email us. And when I say us, my giant staff of me, this is Heather and Ashley. you can reach us at connect at standintheand.com. You can send your thoughts and feedback. You can send something about, you would like to hear us talk about a certain and tension.

And in that, I'll remind all of us that we are speaking generally about the human experience and are not going to be experts in your particular situation. So anybody seeking specific support, I hope you're reaching out to therapists and coaches and other qualified support people to get support with your individual needs. And here we can have general conversations and learn from each other about some of the tools in the toolkit that might be helpful and hopefully just help normalize that we're all trying to figure this out together.

So reach out to us at connect at standintheand.com if you have ideas or feedback. What else? You can find me on LinkedIn. Does anybody on, is anybody on LinkedIn? Listen.

Nash (50:21.164)
No way, there's a place for it. I have LinkedIn account.

Okay, I'm just saying there are plenty of y'all out there on LinkedIn, even if you never post anything. I think it's helpful. I'm growing. I think we might be starting a stand in the end Instagram account. Maybe check it out.

Stay tuned. you can link when you post this, you can link the Instagram account if you do make it before you post.

See, there you go. This is why we invite the teenagers. check this. I hear on podcasts are like, check this show notes. Don't know. check the show notes. Stand in the end Instagram. And they're going to tell you where Ashley has convinced me that we need to be that we're not so that you can find us. And I think that's all for now.

Yeah, check this.
Nash (51:08.206)
You can tie back and do three episodes based on stuff we touched.

Heather (51:15.102)
I feel proud of us for leaning through that little hiccup for the do over. yeah. I mean, cheers to showing up in the mess and failing. So we're just going to failure. Okay. I'm not afraid of the word failure because I feel like I just look at it as like, well, that was a fail.

For the second time.

Nash (51:38.414)
I think it was a failure on whatever made the... Yeah, we hadn't touched the computer and it went out.

The internet.

Heather (51:44.642)
Y'all it just stopped. So we're going to figure that out before next time. And like I was saying, maybe it got recorded and maybe it didn't today, but there is a certain point, maybe this is recording. I don't know how to tell. There's a certain point where you can think and ponder your way only so far before you have to do stuff to learn. And we are in it.

So part of that standing in the end sometimes is like just showing up in the uncertainty to learn the thing that you can only learn by the showing up. And I'm very grateful for you being here today. Nashie.

Thank you

Nash and I trust me and we do can chit chat all day about all sorts of things. What makes this so special is that you have chosen to stay with us through this little bit bumpy episode number one. And it really does mean a lot. I'm very grateful for your curiosity. I think that curiosity and connection we could use a lot more around us right now.

It's a lot of what the end is about is just staying curious about the complexity in ourselves and each other. So I'm grateful for the curiosity you had to stay here with us and the connection that I feel with you, even though I can't see you. So I hope you'll continue to show up with us. If this feels helpful to you, right? Hold it and come back. If not, that's okay. It's not going to be for everybody. Take what feels helpful, leave what doesn't. We do look

Heather (53:26.574)
forward hopefully to hearing from you and having you here next time. In the meantime, stand in the end, stay curious and see you soon.

Be safe.

The Stand on the End podcast is supported by Human-Centered Strategy, where we help leaders and teams build connection and strategy and complexity so that everyone can flourish. To learn more or to work with us, please visit us online at humancenteredstrategy.com or message me on LinkedIn.