The Dance of Passion & Pause

In this episode, Heather and Willysha explore the balance between passion and pause. They delve into personal experiences, emphasizing the importance of self-care and energy management. The conversation highlights the need for intentional pauses to sustain passion and prevent burnout, offering practical tools and insights for listeners to apply in their own lives.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions shared in this episode belong solely to the guest and do not necessarily reflect those of their employer or affiliated organizations.

Host: Heather Gates, MPH, Owner & Strategy Partner, Human-Centered Strategy, LLC 

Guest: Willysha Jenkins, MS, CSM, Chief of Staff-Health Portfolio, NC Department of Health and Human Services

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Transcript

Heather

Welcome back to the podcast, y'all, where I am standing in the and today with my dear friend and public health data nerdery colleague originally, Willysha Jenkins. Willysha, I would love for you to introduce yourself in whatever way that feels good to you, to the audience.

Willysha Jenkins

Wow, Heather, this is like a long time coming. I'm not surprised to connect with you again because I am a flower child. I am like someone who definitely builds connections, builds relationships, builds my perception based on how I feel when I'm around folks. We're definitely a person that helped me like ground in that. So, I'm definitely like a flower child and a feeler. I am an explorer. I love to travel. I love to learn about different communities and learn how I can see things from different perspectives. So, I find myself to be a global citizen. I am a mother. I am a daughter. I am an auntie, the favorite. Auntie, don't know. Yeah, it's all about me and they all look like me. I don't care what anyone says. They all look like me. I am. I'm a lot of things, but ultimately, I am a data nerd. So, I got my, my training in biomedical sciences and research. So, I'm definitely a data nerd. I'm a lover of people. And so that comes together into public health for me. That's how I express that in what I do.

And I am currently the Chief of Staff at the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services for the portfolio of health under Deputy Secretary Deborah Farrington. And I am here just as me. So, I'm excited. Yeah. And I'm excited to talk a bit about something that I still struggle with today.

Heather 

Yeah, same.

Willysha Jenkins 

And I'm hoping standing in the and with you will bring some clarity and hopefully some of my experiences can do the same.

Heather 

We're at least just going to show up in it, right? When I tell people Stan, know, Stan really is just is showing up and I don't think it's work that's ever done. What a beautiful introduction, by the way. I love it so much. I'm like, just add poet or something to the list. It was just so lovely. And I'm like something. Yeah. And there is some word magic. That was lovely.

Willysha Jenkins 

You know what? I did write poetry for a while. Sometimes I still do.

Heather 

And I just wanna say, I mentioned our paths crossed on some kind of state level data strategy pondering some years ago, I don't even remember. And it just has been, you and I don't work together now. As I said, my intro, just call you a friend at this point. And I'm just so grateful that our paths have crossed. It really has been a true joy, not only to work with you, but-

Willysha Jenkins 

Yeah.

Heather

just to know you are a brilliant bright light. And yeah, I'm just happy to share space with you always and really honored that you're up for being in the and with me today in a way that everybody else can benefit from too. So, thank you for being here. Listen, we'll do what we need to do.

Willysha Jenkins 

you're gonna make me cry. Don't do it. You know I will. You know I will. You find a way to pull it out of me.

Heather

Well, I don't try, but I definitely am not afraid of, I don't think I've shared it on this podcast, but when I'm with my kids and I'm crying, you know, I say I'm just, I'm so full of emotion it's falling out of my face. You know, I just I am. mean, you said you're a big feeler. I don't know that I knew you identified in that way, but I for sure am a big thinker and a big feeler. And yeah, sometimes the feelings just have to come out some kind of way. Out of my face. I think humans can cry for a reason. I think, you know, so much of this and we're going to really get into it here in a minute. But I think part of.

My journey over time has been trusting what my body already knows it needs. right, against kind of what culture tells me it should be doing. The more I sense in and it needs to cry, let it cry, if it needs a break, give it a break. So, this almost an unlearning of what quote should be or. Before we get into it, I am curious what and you're standing in today. So as you show up, let's do what I call an and stand.

Heather

And I'll go too, but if you have one, kind of how are you showing up as we do this today?

Willysha Jenkins 

I am showing up big on passion and boundaries and pauses for sure. Yes, I am standing in that today.

Heather 

So the topic that we're gonna dig into, you're feeling into today specifically. That's always fun, that makes it feel fresh and present. Nice, nice. Well, we'll come back to you then, because that is indeed what our topic is gonna be. Where am I standing in? It's Friday, it has been a week.

Willysha Jenkins

Yes. Yes, very present. You

Heather

And I think I sit here feeling satisfied. And that's really important. I'm glad I have myself on recording now, hopefully saying that because as an almost insatiable seeker,

I'm always reaching and it is a new experience for me to feel this kind of embodied enoughness in a way that feels like I'm satisfied with my effort, I guess to say. Like, you know, I want to give all of that I have to give. I want to leave it all on the field. And as I sit here at the end of week, I'm like, I did my work. You know, I did my thing.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yes.

Heather 

And so I feel satisfied right now. And it feels nice just to settle in to that. With that also, the and, I feel satisfied and eager still. I still feel some of that reach energy kind of in multiple directions. I was telling somebody recently that I tend to like love like fireworks, not like a hose.

Willysha Jenkins 

Mm-hmm.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yeah.

Heather 

You know, it's like in a bunch of directions. So I'm eager and like excited to go do Thanksgiving with family and some, you know, at this point in the year, we're always thinking about what's next. So it's like, what's 2026 look like? I have some creative pursuit. So, but eager in a way that feels, you know, uncertainty often comes with some heaviness and some stressfulness.

Willysha Jenkins 

What is it going to bring? Especially now, it's like, what's tomorrow going to look like?

Heather 

and a little bit of what's it gonna be like. feel some, because we could talk about all that, but I just, I'm honoring that I feel some eager that feels positive. So yeah, I guess a real Heather complicated way to say, I'm good today. I think I'm good right now. Well, I think we all,

Willysha Jenkins 

yes.

Willysha Jenkins 

love that and you so deserve every day to feel like that for sure.

Heather 

Deserve is a complicated word for me, but yeah, think we all can't switch. You and I are both showing up with our passion to fight for is that everybody deserves everything. Yeah, everything. So let's get into it. So when you were in our talking, because I know I want since I had, and I wish I had the notes, but like since I've imagined having a podcast, you've been on my list of who I want to have. Yeah. Sit with me in it.

Willysha Jenkins 

Everything. Everything.

Heather 

So as we pondered together, you know, what of the billion things that we could talk about today, what should we settle into? And we picked the and of passion and pause, I think is what we're gonna call it. Will you tee that up for us and just like, is it? What do the words mean? Do you separately? What is the and of it? Like paint the picture for where you kind of what it means to you. And we'll just go from there.

Willysha Jenkins 

For sure. So, I am definitely driven by passion. I am a flower child energy feeler. So passion is a major component for me. And I think just as a human being and knowing that we're connected to the universe, I think that feeling of passion comes from somewhere. So I feel like it very much flows through me and guides me. and helps me in my decisions and drives me through periods when I must be resilient and passion is very, very important. And so, passion is expelled through various facets in my life in different ways. And I found, and this is something I really learned as I learned to stand in the and, I found that applying what I know is right for me with regard to passion in one area, whether it's the passion I feel for my child, the love, the desire to care and nurture or a partner or even in my work. It must be like as pure as it can be. It must be something that I'm putting my energy into that I feel some affinity for.

And with that internal drive, I've learned over time that there must also be boundaries in order to keep that passion pure and in its truest form in each area of your life. And just culturally and even beyond culture,

I'm a science nerd. we're talking about genetics, epigenetics, and like things that have happened generations before me and how that impacts how my cells express themselves today or how I process the world today. Like there's a lot that goes into what drives you. And so you, you may oftentimes as you're navigating life,

do things or allow things to happen and give your passion to it, but they don't really align with what you're supposed to be using your talents for. And without boundaries, things can really go awry. 

I was really passionate and pure in my desire to help communities that are disproportionately affected by certain disparities or, or outcomes. I was passionate about that. was real. It's what I feel I'm meant to do

I very much bring myself to work. I bring who I am, very vulnerable. But I learned standing in the and is that there can be both. You can be passionate and you can ensure that things happen in a way where you're respected and you're appreciated and you're valued. And so it was a journey because for a time I wanted to turn away from it.

Heather 

Yeah, so I mean, much you just said there about, mean, I guess to acknowledge. So, you know, as I listen to you here, Willysha, it's honoring that you're like, I'm a passionate person, period. And work is one of those places that I channel that energy. I think a lot, because you're using the language around keeping my passion pure. Like how almost how do we guard that?

the specialness of that kind of fire. I think a lot about clean energy. You hear about clean energy and other senses, but I'm often thinking about how do I keep my own energy as clear as possible? And what are the guardrails that go around that to help protect that fire? Because I think for a lot of reasons, in my experience, it's

I always wanna think like being a fire tender, like a fire keeper or something like that is like, what's then the work of that? My fire tending, I think over time, so if we think about, we're very passionate, I too have a big fire for this work. I would say it was probably lit, like with a big torch originally, as an AmeriCorps and like,

volunteer in 2001 really lit on fire for prevention and for system level change, such that, again, you mentioned disparities, that everyone has a fair chance at flourishing. And that fire really, so as a passionate person, and I don't know if this is your experience too, I'm curious.

I feel like I am wired in some ways for burnout. that, I can just like that fire is intense and directional. And I have learned over time that I am wired for burnout because not only am I passionate, but what that means in me is I am, it expresses itself in push energy and go and get it.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yes.

Heather 

and figure it out in a really intense driving energy that I cannot actually sustain. So when we talk about the and and the tension with passion and pause in particular to bring that in here.

You know, again, whether it's culture or wherever it comes from, I think some of my early challenge and you talk about kind of the kind of let me notice and create some boundary around passion. I think probably mine is more how do I boundary Heather a little bit to to like. It's OK to slow down like nobody's coming to tell me that I can.

Willysha Jenkins 

Mm-hmm. Right.

Heather 

take a break. Nobody's coming with a permission slip to say, you need a day, you need a minute, you need a minute, you need a week, you need a month, you need a year, whatever it is. But that sort, you know, I think this, do I slow it's, it's not even a slowing, I don't know that I can slow it down. So I have because it's so intense when it's on, I just have to be really intentional about making space to

I don't want to say disrupt my own momentum, but sort of, do you know, I don't know if any of that makes sense.

Willysha Jenkins

Yeah, I know what you mean. It makes complete sense because I mean, but I think when it comes to you, and this is what I learned after I got past like letting other people make me feel like I had to go, go, go. Once I got past that, then I did, and I do, have to get on me. That's the part that I mentioned to you that I still have to work on.

Heather 

Yep.

Heather 

Still working on it. Yeah, yeah.

Willysha Jenkins 

But I know exactly what you mean and what I have definitely started to do and my body started to do for me is tell me to slow down. Like I've had a lot going on from my shoulders to my joints. It's been craziness. My body really telling me you need to slow down. And so through some of those circumstances, unfortunately it got that extreme. Now

Heather 

Hmm.

Heather 

Yeah, no, me too.

Willysha Jenkins 

I, I resonated with you when you said that I pay attention now to what my body needs. And I think maybe we both should tap into that more in the day to day. Like, what do I need in this moment? Like we came to stand in the and where we were in this moment. I think if we do that more, we can recognize, okay, let me slow down. Like when I legit tell you, I have this at my desk and sometimes I look at it and I'm like, you know what? I'm going to go to my backyard for 20 minutes and you know what? The world's not going to burn.

because if I fall over at my desk right now, someone else will be here. And a week or two, you know?

Heather 

Yeah, so for those of you who can't see Willysha like I can, she's holding up her pause button, which y'all all should know by now that you can buy one of these for your very own. But I love, so I feel like we've already listed kind of two tools that I just wanna put a pin in. Because so much of this, Willysha, as we talk about standing in the and, as you know, I wanna, it just feels helpful to me to normalize the experience that we're in.

Willysha Jenkins 

yeah.

Heather 

talk about the tension, where we get stuck, where we've experienced stuckness, and how are we getting unstuck? How are we staying in that pure energy to use your language, your pure passion energy so that you can continue to do what you're doing? And that's what this podcast is for. All of y'all out there with a fire in your belly for making the world better and more beautiful for people.

I want us to keep figuring out how to nurture ourselves and support each other so that we can continue to do that. So two things that you've said already is one is if the more we can stay in our bodies, if that feels like right, as safe as we can make that for us, our body will tell us. And then this pause button, and I'll just be a little nerdy a second on the health behavior side, which is where my masters is, I think in theory we would call this a cue to action.

Willysha Jenkins 

Mm-hmm.

Heather 

which actually ironically is a cue to inaction or it is a pause being, because you didn't say I just, I saw this and then I stopped everything. You said I saw this and then I shifted to something else. So the pause button really is an interrupter. It's an interrupter of whatever the energy intensity or whatever is happening so that you can shift. So it doesn't have to be a pause button for us. It could be anything on your desk that helps remind you to. you know, take a take a time out. Something that.

Willysha Jenkins 

And then it gives you the chance to have discipline because once you recognize it, now it's your responsibility to act on it. So at that point, if you're truly driven, you know, Heather, we're pretty high driven, like if I make myself responsible for it, I'm going to do it. And so that's again, where you apply those skills that you may apply to work to yourself. Give yourself a modicum of that.

Heather 

Hmm

Willysha Jenkins 

back and you'll be able to sustain and flourish and just go beyond what even you may have imagined.

Heather 

I have never thought about this pause situation that we're discussing as a discipline. Like I wanna just like slow down what you just said, cause it feels so important. You're saying taking some of that, it is, there's a, this commitment that's showing up in the passion and the push, the discipline to keep after it. You're saying if we can channel some of that same attentiveness to what we need,

And I bet this feels really true to me because I have recently spent a lot of time thinking about this particular topic. I have a full-on system in place in my calendar right now with like three-day chunks, one day chunks, two hour blocks. I've just never thought of that as a discipline.

Yeah, I don't know. It just is an interesting way to think about it as a strategy, as an intentionality, not an apology. Right. So, in the beginning and this is so my in the beginning, so maybe similar to you because you were saying in the beginning it was more like what's happening around me, the external and how do I boundary or pause or do what I need there? And then it's the in kind of internal self stuff.

Yeah, for me, I think it's like that wave one is this the permission to pause like whatever we have to sort through like it's okay. Not only is it okay. I just made myself a note before we started this, but as I started making a couple of notes for this podcast, I realized how passionate and fired up I get about the pause.

Willysha Jenkins 

Mm-hmm.

Heather 

And I'm like, there's some irony in there somewhere that I'm going to have to like pause myself on my passion about the pause before I just get real preachy on the soapbox about this. I'm like, I'm like, okay, y'all seriously for real, like anybody who feels like they need a permission to pause what we're saying too. So on that front, what I see without it. So, if we're not, if we are in hustle culture,

Willysha Jenkins 

I'll be right there with you, okay? For real.

Heather 

Go, go, go, go, go. I think we think that it's serving the mission and we may feel like it's not serving us, but we don't have permission to tend to that, but it's serving the mission. I wanna say, I don't even think we're serving the mission as well as we could in that model. So that isn't, it's just not true. We are going too fast. I think we see mistakes. It's inefficient. We're having to clean stuff up all the time. Like it's not working anywhere.

Willysha Jenkins 

And it's stressful. It's hard on you.

Heather 

and it's stressful and it doesn't feel good and it's hard on you. But all of that aside, so aside from like feels terrible and you're worthy of flourishing, period. Even if you do nothing for anyone, you're a human on the planet and you deserve that. Back to what do we mean by deserve it? Everybody does. It's not even serving the work. So I think we… so that trade off like let's just be done with that trade off.

Willysha Jenkins 

Exactly. Yes, you do.

Willysha Jenkins 

That goes back to the pure passion. It no longer serves what you're doing. So why do it?

Heather 

Yeah, it doesn't serve what you're doing. So one example I gave is the inefficiency just from the pace of it. The other one I would give is what we know back to nerdery from a neuroscience perspective is our feedback loops can kind of get ahead of us, right? Especially in emotional intensity and stress. So we have to kind of...

pause, slow it down a little bit, pause for a second so that we can respond and not react. So even in service to the work, we need to pause. And then there's the dance, right? I think on the other side of once you're like, okay, Heather and Willysha, I'm on board and I get it. And you're now, you see it, you see that you have to have both.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yes.

Willysha Jenkins 

we need to.

Heather (29:15.5)

So it's not, not even trying to convince you to create it. I'm trying to let you know that you can let it be true. Your body knows this, right? Our bodies know. Our bodies know. If you're, my guess is all of us who are wired really intensely also have some piece of us that really desires like solitude and calm or some other balancing energy.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yes. Yes, they know. They know.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yes. Yes.

Heather 

And so like, how do we give ourselves permission to be true? And then what are the discipline? Like I love the discipline. What are the systems and structures to put in place? Because in me anyway, that intensity side is kind of bossy in my body. Like we'll take over all the rest and then burn out. And so the dance that I'm constantly navigating, like in real time, I literally got coached about this two days ago.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yeah.

Heather 

Okay, just to remind you how fresh this reality is between. Yeah, the passion and the push and the pause and this ebb and flow and the dance and the discipline to support it. is to keep in particular for me is it's clear to me that I don't want to just firework my energy out and then burn out and I'm done. Like I care …the fire that I have.

Willysha Jenkins 

Exactly.

Heather 

I need to burn for as long as possible.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yeah, you got to nurture it. And it's your responsibility. And when you think about all that you're engaged in and all the impact you have, like you said, if you're taking care of yourself, that genius is going to come out of you. You you're allowed to have it like it's there, but you have to nurture yourself and ensure that you're able to perform and walk in your destiny. And once you realize that responsibility is really to yourself,

Heather 

Mm.

Willysha Jenkins 

then you're like, okay, this is really what I need to do to be my best. I'm my best when I'm well fed, well read, happy, you know. Sometimes things are hard and you have to work hard and work with you. We're not living in a bubble. I have a partner. So my boundaries are sometimes pushed and pulled. But in general, it's something that

Willysha Jenkins 

I owe to myself in service of everyone I love. If I say I love my son, I owe it to him to be my best. And if my best says go get a 90-minute massage and a hydrofacial, then I'm gonna go do that.

Heather 

Okay. I'm like note to self Google hydrofacial. I don't know about this. Okay. Well, I think I'm up for all the tools in the toolkit. I want to, again, there's, feel like everything you want to say, I just want to reverse the tape and pull out a piece and talk about one piece at a time. As you were talking about nurturing yourself,

Willysha Jenkins 

haha

Heather 

said I have a responsibility to myself. Just to hold that up, the and of, because the passion. I feels like I have a, you mentioned in the beginning, I'm a global citizen. I hold a deep responsibility to the collective it feels like, right? To almost like wherever this passion comes from and comes through me, I have a responsibility to help move it through and out into the world … AND a responsibility to myself.

Willysha Jenkins 

Absolutely.

Heather 

Maybe for me, like both as the vessel of that passion and just as a being that is separate from it, because I don't know that. Yeah, I don't know. That just felt important.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yes. You're definitely...

Willysha Jenkins

think it is. And I think when you say vessel, it's really important. I don't know what folks beliefs are and things of that nature, but everything is connected. Nature is balance. We are all made of little atoms and it's like, it's all connected. Stardust. And so, you know, I believe that your ancestry impacts you. Like, I mean, just genetically, it makes sense to me scientifically and just my own personal and spiritual beliefs. So I do believe the vessel is real. And if you think about whatever your family history is, or your ethnic history is, and what had to be endured for you to be a human on the planet right now, it's like, yes, I am a vessel through which folks with some kind of sense, continue to procreate in hopes of balancing the world order at this point.

Heather 

Mm.

Willysha Jenkins 

But we'll save that for like, we have to do something. So if I got to take care of myself so I can be strong enough to raise my son to be able to navigate problems and navigate the system and continue that, that energy, that pure passion, then that's my role in my short second here on earth compared to the moon or sun or star.

Heather 

Yeah.

Heather 

Just so important, Willysha, like. I don't know that we talk about it normally that I don't know that we talk about in that way when we're talking about our passion and our purpose that not even separately, maybe it's not even an and but like part of my passion and purpose is acknowledging that nurturing myself is part of that responsibility. And when you see it that way, I wonder if it's easier. I think it's taken me some time to see it that way. But then once you do,

it's a strategy, like then it turns into a strategy and you're like, okay, this is part of the, this is part of it. This is part of holding a fire and living a passion is like in that instruction manual is also this responsibility to myself. If there's more you wanna say about that, happy to hear. And then I'm also.

stirring for me kind of similarly as you start talking about these things is like, what does that mean in real life? When we're saying responsibility to myself, when we're talking about the pause, I wonder if we can give folks, it's gonna look different for everybody, but just like what it looks like for you in a practical sense, I'm happy to share like what it looks like for me in a practical sense.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yeah. I'll give you an example that was just this week. on last Friday, my great aunt, Celestia Witherspoon passed and she had been living in Detroit for like 50 years. She was older and sick. It was surprising, but it's like, you know, it's one of the elders in the family. And my mom was really, you know, upset and you know,

At this point, I've gone through these traumatic like death experiences, unfortunately, for so many years. I haven't yet to process it'll probably be at the service. Either way, my mom wanted to go to Detroit. She wanted me to drive Wednesday and come back Sunday for the services. And then I was like, well, maybe we can fly, you know.

Granted, I just started this new job and I had shoulder surgery like seven months ago and it's like cold and I'm like, that arthritis? And so I really didn't want to. I really didn't want to, but I knew that my mother was upset. And eventually, think, when did I talk to her? Day before yesterday.

Heather 

Yeah.

Willysha Jenkins 

You know what? was talking to my fiancé and I was like, I really don't want to go. And she was like, well, don't. And I was like, you know what? I'm not going. And you'll have to figure it out. And she was upset. And then she got over it. And I told her I'll her some gas money or buy you a ticket, but I'm not going. And that's what it looks like for me in that moment. And I was like, it's one of the first times I really told my mom no in my life and didn't overextend myself.

Heather 

Mm.

Willysha Jenkins 

beyond what I physically was feeling and still in feeling. I want to rest. I want to sit here and eat and sit on my couch. And I'm not trying to drive to Detroit where the real feel is 19 degrees and take my eight-year-old. I'm not doing that. And I felt bad for a second, but then I was like, that's what it looked like for me. I chose rest over responsibility.

Heather 

Hmm. And I mean, if I went at or and not over respond, you chose responsibility to

Willysha Jenkins 

Oh yeah, yes, I chose responsibility. That's 100 % because I deserve to rest, you know? It's been a lot. I bought a house this year in the worst market. Got this new job. If I want to sit in these walls that I'm paying for, I've earned that. I have earned that. And that's okay.

Heather 

It's such a powerful example of, I mean, even when I think about the examples and stories shared on this episode so far in how...

this negotiation between me and we, and how often to protect the pause or take the pause that we feel like we need involves some negotiation with the outside. And like the comfort, discomfort of a no in service to the self-responsibility.

Because what I know when I say in particular, the word that came up for me is obligation. Like I'm going to do this in service of self-responsibility and outside of obligation, because every time I step into that alternative model, I feel resentment. I'm then tired and now I'm going to blame you that I'm tired and I'm going to be mad. whole right. All this other stuff that then comes with it, that's not clean energy and true passion or whatever we were talking about before is like

Willysha Jenkins 

Mm-hmm.

Willysha Jenkins 

It's not.

Heather

noticing the heaviness of an not embodied that doesn't feel like a word and uninvolved like noticing a yes, that's not really a yes and the heavy and the heaviness of how that plays out either short term or long term. And it's hard, right? It's hard though. But I mean, what that takes though is like, I mean, you even said it's, it's a willingness.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yeah.

Willysha Jenkins 

And the consequence, the energy consequence.

Heather 

to sit in the discomfort of saying no to somebody who you're like, I don't know that I've ever actually done this in my whole life. And they're going to have some feelings about it. So it's not even like, well, I'll trust that it'll work out. No, I trust that they will in legit be upset. And I still will just be in that and let that be true in service to what I know I need. Like that is, you talked about responsibility and discipline, like the discipline to sit in that kind of discomfort.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yeah.

Willysha Jenkins 

very uncomfortable.

Heather 

That's that still is in. But on the other side of it is this true or cleaner energy, because then you have you've told the truth to yourself first and then to others and then, you know, have had the courage to say what you need to say to get to get to what you need.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yeah. Yeah.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yes!

Heather 

I've certainly had some examples similar. think I even talked about it on the last podcast I did with Dolly. talked about ringing our sponge out some, I said, the question sometimes when I'm in that, like, I need to go, I don't really want to go. When I asked myself, what would you do if no one would be disappointed or judge you?

And then I get that answer. I usually know that that's the truth. And what's keeping me from it is just the fear of disappointing somebody or somebody being judging to me about it. And over practicing that over time, like knowing what it feels like, like the lightness and the ease that comes from telling the truth to yourself and other people about where your energy needs to go. Cause that's ultimately, guess, Willysha what we're talking about is energy management.

Willysha Jenkins 

Absolutely.

Willysha Jenkins 

Energy Management.

Heather 

Like you have this passion fire. How do you tend to it? How do you, where do you put the energy? When do you need to kind of, when do need to interrupt it and step back and comment? What

Willysha Jenkins 

Yes.

Willysha Jenkins 

And when you think we're faced with so much all the time, like if we don't manage it, it's a lot.

Heather 

Oof.

Heather 

Let's talk about that. I'll give an, you gave an example of a no that got you to pause and rest. One that I've realized lately in like a micro pause kind of way, cause to me this comes up in the every hour version and then the over a lifetime, you know, I need a year of something else. So it looks different in scale.

I something that I'm working on right now. And it's not like one of the chance in the dance between the passion and the pause for me is the gear shift between things. Like, I feel whiplashy a fair amount, even just from like, it's a regular Monday morning, and I'm shifting gears from like weekend mom mode, chill me dance to come run the business that shift. or I see it in myself and others, this shift to PTO and then back. And then the countless shifts that we're doing in the day, like I'm learning that some space, tiny space between those, like when I'm shifting from one part of myself to another is helpful. What I have not, like not consciously, but what I realized that I was doing, until I went on retreat recently and I'm like trying to sort myself out is that in every pause, I'm talking about like even at I'm at a red light for 30 seconds, I'm picking up my phone, I'm checking my email, I'm checking my Gmail, I'm checking LinkedIn and I'm checking Instagram at every at every transition. And I was like, so I go into to retreat, I do silent retreat, I've talked about it, I think on the podcast couple times a year. So I was there. So I'm like, it's just me and the quiet.

Willysha Jenkins

all the time.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yeah.

Heather 

And I am craving, my current intention is to savor my aliveness. Okay, that's the goal, to savor my aliveness. And so I'm like, all right, self, what does that mean? What does that look like? And I'm like, I wanna slow it down. I wanna be in what I'm doing, not 10 steps ahead. Like I wanna be in it. And so you start thinking about what are the things that are keeping you from that? And the amount of time, I'm not even,

Sometimes it's I'm sitting here scrolling on social media, but the the habit that I have created to unfinished one thing or I'm going to the house, but I'm like I'm filling all the spaces with stuff. So even at a place where I need pause because you talk about the noise and when you're a passionate person when you're a big feeler, I'm like all of these inputs that I'm inviting into my energy.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yes.

Heather 

that I'm choosing, right? I'm not choosing for the inputs to be what they are, but I'm choosing to consume them as frequently as I am. And I was like, that has to stop. And it is, as somebody who has studied health behavior, I'm humbled every time I try to change one of my habits about how, you know, cause there's a lot and there's...

Willysha Jenkins 

Mm-hmm.

Heather 

we don't have podcast time left to go through all the ways that I have tried to tinker with my energy over time. mean, one of them like caffeine for me, like blows my energy passion like too fast. Wine drives it too slow. Like all these things that that I've tried to do to manage the energy of all this that now I'm just stripping all of that out to try to listen to my body better. And then yet still pumping it full of inputs that just aren't

Willysha Jenkins 

Yes.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yeah, too slow.

Heather 

aren't needed and I'm not anti social media we use it in our business I just it's a it's a place where it's a.

Willysha Jenkins 

yeah. Guilty. It's a time. A time. It's a life. I just feel like it sucks the life out of you.

Heather 

Well, and for me, I feel like that from a time I had seen it that way is like, I'm wasting my time doing this. But I don't think I had connected it until like last week to. I'm not able to get the. Like really soak in the magic or that sounds like the breath, like the breath and the spaciousness. Had an orchestra teacher once who told us to play the silence like music has space.

You know what mean? So I realized that I was filling all the tiny spaces up. Even if, even if I, even if I know that I need that pause in transition between things, you know, I don't have a pause button on my desk anymore. Now that I just pulled this out for this, I'm like, I need to, I'm going to sit it on top of my phone just like this and, and go, because I think I'm using my phone to, to like, Yeah, just like that. I'm telling you.

Heather 

I'm using my phone as the way to interrupt my energy and instead it's fueling it.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yep. Yeah. And I've been there. That's something that I I still have to work on things. I do the same thing to distract myself from the feeling or to distract myself from thinking about a topic that I'm, I don't want to think about work anymore, whatever I have to do to stop thinking about it. And so then I use this if it's particularly cold outside, because I don't like to be cold unless I'm going to like,

Heather 

Yep. I love the cold. 

Willysha Jenkins 

be tubing or something. I like the clothes, but I prefer, you know, if there's a fire anyway. If I'm not out and about and doing things, then yeah, I'll be like, okay, I need to something to stop me from obsessing. And it takes a lot to slow down because we're trying to, we were trained that way. We've been pushed that way, even from the structure of how upper-level education teaches you how to think and you know, like,

Heather 

Yeah!

Willysha Jenkins 

We've been trained that way all of our lives since kindergarten. You get up this time to do this, you do this, and you keep go, go, go. So, I mean, we got to give ourselves a break. It's not like a habit we've had for like, I'm not mad. I'd be like, whatever I need. Yeah, it is.

Heather 

It's go, it's go, it's go.

Heather (48:47.928)

Yeah, I'm not mad at it. I'm not mad at us about it. Yeah, whatever I need. I think what I'm saying though from a like be honest with myself first is is and I love you naming it that way is like I'm picking up my phone to help interrupt the thing that I'm doing and I'm saying that that's what a pause is. It is an interruption of the energy. It is a shift. What I'm saying is the way I was choosing to do that was

Willysha Jenkins 

Mm-hmm.

Heather 

not actually serving me. And again, that's not something that anybody else is going to call out. But me, like what actually helps me savor my, sometimes it is, especially if I'm bored. Like I will sit there and laugh at random videos on Instagram, but this, this habit I have of just check it, check it, check it, scroll for a few minutes. It just kept fueling my my stuff. what else besides, let me quit picking on myself about social media and the gaps. Other things, I'm curious if we have other tools. I mean, maybe from, let's talk about the discipline even you mentioned of pause, because I said one a minute ago, but I'm happy to say a little bit more even about what this means from a calendar perspective.

Willysha Jenkins 

So I, well, this is a new job. Look, I'm not doing great right now, but from a calendar perspective, discipline, no, will, if I feel myself driving beyond what I physically need in a particular week, then the next week I do develop a schedule where I put intentional focus time.

in my schedule, in my work schedule. I realize other professionals do this. Like, I mean, there's nothing you can say. have to focus. I have to do the things. So during that focus time, what I focus on is myself. I focus on myself and what I feel I need in the moment, whether I want to go outside for a walk, whether I want to work on a puzzle, whether I want to do whatever, it's just focus time for me. And it helps me recenter myself to the and boundaries. If the week before I did too much, I do that discipline focus time to get myself back on track. It's not something I can maintain like throughout the week, but I find that my habit of being disciplined during work hours enables me to...

Heather 

Yes.

Willysha Jenkins 

put time in where I know that I'm in the mindset to, it's focus time, I get it done. Because if I trust myself to leave it until the evening, I may get distracted in service of others. So I do leverage even my work calendar for my personal health, because y'all need me to be healthy here.

Heather 

you

Heather

Yeah, there's, seems real important. I'm so glad that we brought this up. Like there is no perfect balance equation here. That's not what we're talking about. It's not, how do you perfectly balance the pause and the passion so that everything just runs … like, no, that's not how it works. So I'm the same, super intense. Like I'm gonna burn hard, travel, big client stuff for days. And then I know I need a minute to reset when I can.

Willysha Jenkins 

Uh-uh.

Heather 

And like all the grace for, I mean, I just went through a really busy chapter where in the middle of it, I'm like, oh, I need a minute. And my body's like, you ain't got a minute. You've said yes to like, so sometimes you, yeah, sometimes you feel it and you're like, cause it's not helpful to add a bunch of shame and guilt on top of it when you feel like you can't quite pause in the way that you want to. So it's not about bringing perfectionism to this. I think it's about bringing a mindfulness.

Willysha Jenkins 

Got to get it done. Yeah.

Heather 

certainly at minimum a permission, and then a mindfulness about what does it look like to balance this out, even if what pause means is a disruption in meetings so that I can focus on doing the work that we talk about in the meetings. So this just, it's an intentional disruption.

Willysha Jenkins (52:56.469)

Yeah.

Heather

of a flow or a pattern in service to, you know, what you need. So yeah, I tried it like proactively just protect time because my nature is to fill it in. And sometimes I don't do that and I'm like, I got to carve it out or I got to get it. I have to say no to a family thing so I can recharge on the weekend. So yeah, I would say no room for perfectionism in here. So I'm glad that you brought that in.

Willysha Jenkins 

Mm-hmm.

Willysha Jenkins 

Absolutely, you gotta give yourself grace. Sometimes you have to do a little bit more and sometimes you deserve to do a little bit less. It's just like any relationship. What about the relationship with yourself? Sometimes it's more or less, but you show up every day.

Heather 

Anything else to say? I guess one more thing. I'm just trying to think as we wrap this up, if there's anything left unsaid about the and that we're standing in as passionate folks between as we kind of honor passion and pause. I one other thing I would add before I pass it to you to kind of any final thoughts there is as a fiery person, passionate person, it does help me, like aside from just we've talked about protecting time, slow things like whether that's guided meditation, yoga, I'm quick to not do them because I'd rather be doing stuff and every time I work them out, I realize how important it is for me to just let my snow globe settle somehow. And that has been a real, it helps sustain me if I can keep coming back to those quiet practices. I'm a journaler too that helps me just slow down and take a break from other things. What other tools in the toolkit? Anything else you feel like you wanna mention for folks about this? Tools to navigate the dance here.

Willysha Jenkins 

Tools to navigate the dance here. I would say one of the things that I leverage in addition to yoga is music. Music is one of the oldest forms of communication, know, just biologically and just phonically. All the, the leads does things to you.

Heather 

Hmm.

Heather

Hmm.

Willysha Jenkins

And if there is music that tends to generally invoke some feeling and you want to take some time, let yourself float away, take some time, play your favorite playlist or if you like records, take some time to go in your room, play some records. That's what I do. I do have records at my house. Yes. Yes. Record player. And I will lay on my back and I'm like, taking time. So find the things that

Heather 

Do you have records at your house? Do you? I love this.

Willysha Jenkins

generally bring you joy and do those things. I will also say I'm a huge fan of bubble baths. You can't do too much in there. mean, you can do a lot of scrolling, but it will do wonders for your body. Epsom salt, at least you'll get some physical and some aroma therapy as you're scrolling. You got to give and take. I'm a huge fan of that.

Heather 

Right? you can do a lot of scrolling.

Heather

Yep. Yeah.

Willysha Jenkins 

And just being around like-minded people. I'm an extroverted, introverted times or, or overt. There's something new that came out. don't know. Otter over. Yeah. Yeah. don't know. don't know. Something we're going to dig into that and something, but just knowing that I'm not crazy is also a good recharge for me. Like, you know what, girl, there's nothing wrong with you.

Heather 

like, what is it? Like, ambivert. Does that mean both? I think it means both.

Heather & Willysha 

It's not us. Yeah, y'all Google it.

Willysha Jenkins 

you can take an hour and a half break to do something for yourself. Because other people feel this way too.

Heather

Y'all, can we just draw a line at like highlight that in the show notes, call this out? There is nothing wrong with you. those, cause that's the story, guess, Willysha, that is that what we're telling ourselves when we feel tired, like what is wrong with me that I can't do this? Yeah. So nothing's

Willysha Jenkins 

Yeah, why am I tired?

Willysha Jenkins 

Nothing wrong, nothing's wrong.

Heather 

wrong with me. I have two things. Music, I'm curious. So I love the reminder that, you know, like, what can we do to get to the feeling that we want? Right? Not just I feel this way. And what do I do? Well, how do you want to feel? Because that's my thought when when I'm picking music out like that. It's not necessarily I feel frustrated. I want to listen to music that

Willysha Jenkins 

Yes.

Heather

sounds like frustration. It's like, sometimes I'm like, I feel mad and I want to listen to some rage music. like, just music can be an emotional regulator in some ways. It's like, what are songs for feeling joyful if I don't? And it can move you there or it can honor the place.

Willysha Jenkins 

Absolutely.

Heather 

where you are, it's way of, I think, I mean, aside from it's just an actual pause to listen to music, it's a way of feeling seen and whatever you're showing up with that I just love that. Or playlist, know, playlist for various, you can't do that on your record player, which is really awesome that you have. I feel like we might need a photo of this. I know, yeah, send us a picture of the record player. We'll share it for you on Instagram of Willysha and her record player.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yeah, you'll have to come. for sure. For sure. Of course.

Heather 

Last thing that's coming up for me, I think, to close is I'm reminded that we've talked a lot about self and the self-responsibility to tend and that sort of stuff. It feels like, I don't know, there's just something else that I wanna add for anybody who's a listener and a lot of you are in a leadership position. As leaders, we help set the culture and we can create.

permission slips, we can create structures and environments that help encourage and normalize that we can't fuel our passions all the time. In particular, I would say there's a kind of passion and an energy and a push that we've talked about today that isn't just ours, right? It's not I spent 10 hours at work today. I spent 10 hours doing emotionally lovingly, like really intense, like that emotional labor of the particular work that we're talking about sometimes requires a special kind of nurturing and healing also. So, you know, and a lot of people I think that we're connected to and that listen to this podcast are in health and human serving professions in some way. And so

Willysha Jenkins 

Yes.

Heather 

there's a lot there that's not just about the hours in the day, but the intensity of the work. So leaders in those settings, what can we do to honor the pause after traumatic events? mean, we're just kind of post hurricane here a year ago or the day to day things and the topics that we're holding and handling, how do we tend to? that energy and build in pauses. I mean, we can build in structurally things for our teams. We can create cultures and we're here to work, right? So I'm not saying it's every leader's job to be like, everyone take a bubble bath at noon. Like we're here to do our job. But even just people that have PTO, but nobody ever uses it because nobody ever uses it, like these, yeah, or the.

Willysha Jenkins

Exactly. Make them use it. The problems will be here when you get back. Okay? Yeah.

Heather 

The things that we can do from a culture, I guess thinking about the both and of the culture and systems side of it. Now it's easier for me. I have, it's me. I set the culture here. It's me and Ashley. It's the two of us. So if we decide we want to do something, that's easier. Some of us are working y'all in really big organizations with different systems and processes. And it makes it trickier, I think, to figure out like what's okay. You know, can I walk around the building right now?

Willysha Jenkins 

Absolutely.

Heather 

Do I feel like I have the permission? So what conversations can we be having about that? I mean, it activates in me some of the conversations around burnout. And sometimes I get so frustrated because it feels like it's putting it all on the individual and not on the structures and the systems. So it's all of it. And it creates tension, right? That's why we're talking about it, because there's no easy answer.

Willysha Jenkins 

And not on the structure, absolutely. all of it.

Heather

It's an and that we're standing in. It's a dance that we're doing, whether we're leaders trying to figure out how to manage the push and the intensity and give ourselves and our teams the spaciousness. How do we do that for ourselves? We're just here trying to figure it out. Hopefully nobody comes here for answers and just comes that comes comes to the podcast to to help live into the questions. But any… any final things that you feel like are.

Willysha Jenkins 

every day.

Heather

or on your heart that you want to share before I tie us up today?

Willysha Jenkins 

I am just so grateful to be here. I'm just so full right now. I really, I really, I'm just so full. That's all I can say. And I just hope you continue to curate community where we can just be. And I appreciate you. And I'd love to come back sometime.

Heather 

Curate community where we can just be… What a beautiful, like, if you think that's what we're doing here, I am feeling so honored that that is what this is. you know, cause I'm often in a position to try to explain myself. I'm like, I don't know what it wants to be, but it just does. it's going to reveal, mean, often, and I'm, cause you know, I don't know if you know this, but I'm writing about this content too. And I'm like, I think I just have to start and it's going to like reveal itself to me what it is.

Willysha Jenkins

Absolutely.

Heather 

And if part of what that is, is helping curate community where we can be, where we can be in our fullness and our messiness and our complexity and our passion and our purpose and our pause and our kind of personhood and our communities. I just love that reflection. So that's a beautiful gift actually to receive that as far as what the space is. So thank you for that.

Thanks to everybody else for hanging in with us on this journey, for being in the community with us. Stay curious. I think in the and, if I have to keep saying one thing, one tool, if I had to pull one tool out of the toolkit for every episode, it's curiosity. Curiosity about your experience. about your need, about perspective, about all of it. But yeah, stay curious.  From a logistics standpoint, would love to invite y'all to rate the podcast. I can't believe I'm even saying this. Like I'm to the point that I'm not so scared. I'm not too scared to even ask at this point. Rate, review, follow if you know how.

Willysha Jenkins 

Yay!

Heather (01:05:17.226)

You can like check a box and that way, because y'all know we're on a really sporadic posting schedule. So if you want to get them first, the best way to get episodes is to make sure you're following the podcast and then you'll get them as soon as they come out. Thank you again, Willysha, for helping me.

Savor my aliveness today. I know I don't like that we're so far away. We should have done this. So come back. Yeah, come back. Come back and we'll do it in real life at the table. Plenty of ands to continue to talk about. And yes, so.

Willysha Jenkins 

I just wish I could hug you.

I know. We should have... We probably would have got off talk. Yeah, I'll come back. We're gonna figure it out.

Heather 

permission to all again you are missing it Willysha have an old private dance party over at her house right now so before you go to your next thing whatever you're doing now When you're listening to this podcast I challenge you to ask yourself what you need or crave most in this moment and can we explore that. 

Go to the website and buy a pause button if you need a cue to action everybody

 We appreciate y'all so much. See you next time.