Honoring both Gratitude & Grief

In this episode, Heather sits down with Dr. Sarah Banks to explore the lived reality of holding gratitude & grief at the same time—how life can feel full and heartbreaking in the very same breath. Through stories of leadership in crisis, collective loss, and Sarah’s personal experience of losing her father to suicide, they name many of the tangles we don’t usually talk much about: relief alongside guilt, love alongside sorrow, and the pressure to “be okay” when something inside still aches. Together, they offer a simple invitation: let what’s true be true, reach for connection, and remember you don’t have to carry the hard things alone.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions shared in this episode belong solely to the host and the guest and do not necessarily reflect those of their employer or affiliated organizations.

Host: Heather Gates, MPH, Owner & Strategy Partner, Human-Centered Strategy, LLC 
Guest: Dr. Sarah Banks, PhD, RN, CPHN, Public Health Director, Haywood County Health and Human Services Agency

Resources 
988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline
If listeners are outside the U.S. Find A Helpline (global directory)
“The Wild Edge of Sorrow” by Francis Weller

Connect About the Podcast
Email us with your ideas and feedback: connect@standintheand.com
Visit the Podcast for more episodes
See what we’re up to on Instagram with all things “&”

To request strategy partner & facilitation support from Human-Centered Strategy, visit us online at https://human-centeredstrategy.com/contact/

Purchase the Merch
Stickers, mugs, and touchstones can be purchased here https://human-centeredstrategy.com/gifts/

Transcript

Heather

Hey y'all, it's Heather sneaking in here solo for a quick heads up before we start this episode. As you know, our intent for this podcast is to talk honestly about the complexity of the human experience. And I do want to let you know that parts of this episode may feel heavier than others we've done so far.

In addition to honoring gratitude, it includes conversations around suicide, hurricane impacts, other types of loss, and related grief. If those topics aren't something that you're in a place to hold today with us, then I welcome you to skip this one. And if you do listen, I trust you will hold this conversation and yourself with love and care.

Heather

Hello this is Heather Gates and I welcome you to the stand in the and podcast where we have honest conversation about the messy complexity of the human experience, where we get stuck, and how we find forward in the and of it all where many things are true at once. 

This podcast is designed especially for those of us who want to make things more beautiful and better for everyone and sometimes need reminding that we are human too. I’m so glad you’re here. 

Sarah & Heather

Is there cake? There should be cake. 

Heather

There's not cake. There's peanut butter cookies.

Sarah

Oh, even better. I like cake. Don't like icing.

Heather

Oh, that makes it hard to have cake, I guess.

Sarah

No, my husband loves icing. It's a win win. He eats the icing

Heather

Do you like a scrape off level of icing? Yeah. You know, like, if somebody knifed it off. 

Sarah

What do they call it? The, like the crumb layer where there's just enough, like you can still see through the icing. 

Heather

Yeah, I feel that, I feel the same way, like I don't need a scrape all that off. Yeah. I can handle like the middle layer intensity. 

Sarah

Yes. But I don’t need the top layer

Heather

Then scape all the top off. I'm with you on that. I feel that. Okay. Well, now that we've figured that out.

Heather

I’m so full of feelings. Let's see what they are. 

Sarah

There's only one way to know really.

Heather

Broadcasted. That's how I decide how I feel is like, let's get on the mic and tell everybody. Tell everybody how we feel. I don't even know what my and stand is. All right, we're going to wing it. 

Heather

Welcome back to the podcast, y'all. Thank you for coming to the table today virtually, where I'm joined in person at the table today with fellow public health and leadership enthusiast, Sarah Banks. Sarah, thank you for coming over again from Haywood to Henderson today. 

Sarah

Is that a story in itself? 

Heather

Yes. Let's let you introduce yourselves and then I will tell people what that means. Okay. Officially, I am Dr. Sarah Banks, not medical doctor, PhD doctor. I'm the public health director in Haywood County. I am a mother to three incredible boys, and I have two stepdaughters and one grandbaby and one on the way, which I don't even think I had shared with you. I am the proud wife of United States Airmen. I'm all the things, a daughter and a sister and all the things. 

Heather

And all the ands. Yeah. Thank you. I'm so happy to have you. And yes, I really want to say thank you, like, to everybody listening. We have done this podcast before. And didn't record it in the sound quality that made it possible to share. And that is a hard moment. And I think folks are gonna understand our content here in a minute. it's... It's a lot to lean into the conversation that we're gonna have. So for you to be up to doing it again and coming back, I'm just so grateful. I mean, for your willingness to be here and just for the grace too that you handled what really felt like a failure to me. And some people are like, it's not a failure if you learn. I'm like, no, I'm okay just letting that be like that was fail. When we say we're gonna record an hour's worth of really hard and storyful conversation and then to have to text you and say it didn't work is not a good day for anybody. It was great to record. means I get to see you again and I just really appreciate how. 

Sarah

But that was my immediate response was, hey, I get to come back. 

Heather

And I just, as we were just talking about this a minute ago, but as somebody who really does... I don't want to use the word worry, but I just care so much about everybody's experience that it's a real treasure for me. It's really important to be held in times of failure because I definitely don't like it. As we all know by now, I'm a recovering perfectionist. And so to be in those moments and feel supported in community is an interesting, I mean, this podcast, in case anybody's worried, continues to call me to the and over and over and over. And that for sure is one of those times. And not only that, I think I rescheduled the reschedule. So really gold star partnership on my side and I just increasingly am grateful for the times that my life shows me that people will be there with me in that and not just the shined up perfect great helpful part but in the mess. So thank you for that. 

Sarah

Sure. I'm glad I'm happy to be here.

Heather

I'm glad we got to have lunch two times. Another thing I want to ignore before we get into I think even the and Stand is You know thinking about our you know, how long we've known each other and that we've been having this and conversation for a while. You know, I just launched the podcast not too long ago, but I mean, I was with your team. We've been talking about the and of things, like an early and fan, I would say that you are, will you just say, like, why do you think that is? Why do you think the and as a, a noun? I'm like, had to pause to think. Why is that important? What do you think? What is that meant to you? Why does it matter? 

Sarah

I think we do this every time we get together. I try to think about where our paths intersected. Where did they cross? Somewhere in the public health world, initially. You and the and, and being and-tentional came in early on in my public health career when things were messy. Not just, I mean, we were COVID messy. I mean, we were deep in pandemic messy. Things were very uncertain and in a public health world, for those that are not in public health, but you experienced it all with us, things were just really hard for a long time. There was a lot of turnover in public health, and not just in public health, there was a lot of turnover in employment and all the things. 

And in a time where it felt like we had to have all the answers, like it had to be all or nothing, it had to be one way or another, it had to be, you know, the guidance was this, the mandates are this, the masking is whatever it was at the time. It was super helpful when everything felt like it was falling apart and you looked at me and said, you know, two things can be true at once.

And I thought, oh, it doesn't have to be one or the other. Like, I can be scared in this moment and I can feel certain of what we're doing. You know, it was hard and it was rewarding. It was messy and there were days that it felt very black and white. And so you coming in with this concept, it was liberating to be like, I don't have to be the or, I can be both. 

Heather

It shocks me still because I feel it too. Like, why does this feel like such an insight? Because it feels so true. Where I'm like, where did we get the other thing? And I see it over and over. The relief, to me the allowing of what is true to be true. So yeah, it was really fun for me in those early... years because it was something that I thought about a lot just to myself, right, in my own leadership, in my own work, and then to start kind of whispering it out loud to other people. And then seeing where that went. There are Ans paintings in your building now, like to see the little ripples of things and how it resonates and what people are doing with it and how, I mean you talk about being And-tional, but how the work of And helps shape culture, like what it means to be and-tional within a workplace, just starting to play and think through what that is and how that shifting and what that means for teams. So it's been, it's.  obviously have to have you on the podcast as an And fan from like the original. The OG

Sarah

The OG. 

Heather

So let's And stand and dig into it. Cause if I know you and I well enough by now, I know that we'll be chit chatting in two hours or roll by. So I have to get us going into the content, but how are you today? So our And stand is, doesn't have to be content related, but how are you today? What And are you standing in? 

Sarah

I am. And you know, spoiler alert, we had lunch. So, and I talked a little bit about all the things that are going on. And when we did this podcast the first time, I came to you in a place of gratitude and time has passed since then. And I looked at you today and said, I am even more grateful now than I was then And I think it's, I don't know whether it's just carried through, whether it's the time of year. But there's just, there's, I'm so, I'm so grateful for all the things right now. And as we head into the holidays, know, those things get hard too. But we've just. 

My family and I have just really had some really great opportunities to show up for other people lately. And I don't say that to toot my own horn or to put it out into the world, but it's just made me even more grateful for all of the things that I have, for the opportunities that I've been given that I probably did not deserve along the way. 

And just where we are as a family moving forward. it just seems like something bigger than us has showed up in a big way lately. And we've been so blessed to be able to turn around and give it back. So yeah, 

Heather

that's grateful. A whole tangly and of grateful. Anything else you want to add to it? It's mainly sitting in gratitude today really. Just really full. I mean I see it on your face. Sorry it's not a video everybody. You just look. 

Sarah

Yeah. It just feels good. Grounded. Yeah. It's just. grateful. It's just a good place right now with work and home and all the things. Nice. It’s just a place that feels.

Heather

It's snuggly. Yeah, it's snuggly. Well, and across so many in your intro, you said all the things. So in all the hats to notice that I feel gratitude across those domains or buckets of life. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. And to soak that in, know, like let these times feel resourcing. Resourcing. I think I that wrong. What and am I standing in?

I also, I don't know if grateful would be, I'm feeling joy right now. It's Ashley's birthday. Yes. Happy birthday, Ashley. birthday, Ashley. And so there's a little extra celebratory honoring energy and conversation that I feel a really rooted joyful. feeling about. And then I would also say I feel like I'm settling, like settling in the snow globe is settling way. I've been very blizzard snow energy the past couple of days, it seems like. Just with a lot of no real specific, put a finger on it reason.

but it felt very churning and feel like I'm coming back into myself today. So I always love coming out on the other side of that. But I feel like the snow in me is settling. A good dance class will help me do that. So thank you to the YMCA. I just feel so much better today than I have the past couple days.

And I try to be patient with that part of myself that gets churny and feels a thousand things. It's still tricky. Yeah. I still want to push back against it and then I'm creating struggle with my own struggle. So yeah, I think I feel joy. rooted, not only rooted in myself, but it's clear to me that that joy is in a connective way. That it is through and with other people. some really good connection the past 24 hours. But yeah, I feel good too. Which is...

Maybe nice to be in a really grounded, steady place to dig into the light topic that we have picked for ourselves here at the holidays. Yeah. Yeah, we're going to talk about not only gratitude, but also grief today and the and of gratitude and grief. I guess as we frame this up, and I'm curious just without necessarily context or the application of them, just what we mean by those words. So when I think of grief, I think of significant loss of all sorts. It feels like it has a lot of dimensions, a lot of complexity. I mean, even when I think of my own examples of an experiences within grief, there's just so much dimension and difference. then gratitude feels pretty steady for me. thankfulness and appreciation. I don't know if that feels the same for you, but so, and I say that I think because as we get into some, these different ands of it, I think I'm gonna... I feel already the urge to talk about different types of grief. Again, would like to be sure everybody knows if you don't yet, I'm not here to be the expert in any of this. 

Sarah

No, please do not take advice from me. 

Heather

We are not here to give answers. We are here living into the questions and the experiences of our own through all of this. So yeah, there's just, there's a lot, wanna think about these different types of and, and I find myself realizing that the variability comes from the grief side. And that to me, gratitude feels more like sturdiness. 

Sarah

But gratitude is comfortable, right? Like those are things that are, they're joyous, they're, they feel comfortable. The grief feels messy. And, you know, I don't know how many stages of grief are there. And everybody grieves differently. Things that feel like a tremendous loss to me. Somebody else would look at them and like, that's not really a big deal, maybe. And so I'm like you, I think there's just so many dimensions to grief where gratitude just feels happy.

Heather

And in the same kind of way, guess, when I think about I don't have as many different types of gratitude as I have different types of grief. So I do want to right we're going to talk about both of those. Grief is going to feel to me like it gets more airtime because it takes to me some more unpacking. So and let's just kind of lean right in, in particular when I say the word grief.

When I Google the word grief, when I am in places and I hear the word grief, typically it is in the context of I have lost someone close to me. We're talking about the loss of someone we love or care about and I am experiencing now grief because of that loss. I think there are other dimensions and experiences of that too and we're going to talk about that too, but you have a really important

Yeah, life changing story around this that I wonder if you want to start with. 

Sarah

And you and I have talked about this before. Yeah. And I realized that my experience is, well, and maybe not, I think when you're going through a big loss like that, I think it feels isolating. I learned in my experience that it really brought people out that I did not know had been through a similar experience. And so then I was grateful that I had kind of shared my story to know that I wasn't alone. 

Heather

Because that's part of the grief experience is this just feeling of loneliness. 

Sarah

Yeah. Yeah. So in June of 2019, I lost my dad to suicide. And it's a story that I share often for a couple of reasons. Like I said, number one is because it felt very isolating. Still has moments where it feels really isolating. Probably also part of my own grieving process to be able to tell the story as a survivor and talk about.

I talk to school-aged children, talk to civic organizations, I talk to friends and family and other people in the community, and I focus on what suicide taught me. And I talk about the things that I learned in the aftermath of surviving losing someone to suicide.

Because it was life altering for me. There's a life before then and a life after, and they're not the same. I learned a lot about grieving. I also now hold very tightly to all of the things in my life that came about afterward. And it's, it's crazy to think that there's gratitude beyond grief like that. But there really is. It takes a minute to find it. Or maybe it just took me a minute to open my eyes and really see it. You know, and like I said, grief is, grief is a funny thing. I read read, I don't know, a meme, an analogy somewhere sometime that grief is like an ocean wave. Like there are moments where it consumes you to the point where you feel like you're underwater paddling for the surface. And then other times you're just kind of standing, you're wading in at ankle deep and it's really manageable.

My brother and I grieved very differently through the process. I am all business. My brother was really kind of consumed emotionally.

And I don't know whether it's just me and I'm like, I gotta handle our business first and then I can do the thing. Or if it was reactionary because my brother was so deeply emotionally consumed. But for whatever reason, I don't think I really took the time to slow down and openly say, My dad committed suicide for probably about two years. Probably took that long to be able to kind of get those words out and then be true.

And I do kind of tend to take on the business side of things. Maybe it feels more comfortable to just... 

Heather

To get it done. To do the tasks. It's such a specific, sudden type of loss and grief too. I don't have the experience to connect to directly, just to kind of hold... Yeah. The unique nature of that kind of loss. 

Sarah

Yeah. And the grief doesn't just come with the actual loss of my dad. It comes with, uh, you know, I tell people to stop shoulding, stop shoulding all over yourself. Like I should have seen it. I should have called him back. I should have, I should have done X, Y, Z. Um, I should have seen the signs. should have whatever it was.

So there's that that plays into it too of, did I miss something or was I never supposed to see it to begin with? 

Heather

So a lot that you're. sorting through and thinking about during those times. 

Sarah

And then you're kind of tasked with dealing with all of that and trying not to be angry because there was a point in time where I could have been just really angry with him for not being here and cutting his life short and all the things that we're missing out on. And that's a gut check moment for me. I'm like, I can't go there.

I mean, because normally when you have issues with someone or you need to have hard conversations or there's a disagreement, you're like, we're going to talk this out. Well, I mean, the only person that's going to give me any answers isn't here to answer my questions. So it makes the grieving process in that moment really, really strange.

Heather

When you mentioned that it's important for you to talk about this now and tell that, I just, can't help but think that some of that isolating feeling for you. the work that you're doing now is helping others perhaps not feel so isolated. 

Sarah

Yeah. We in public health in Haywood County, we took on an initiative, gosh, probably close to three years now, two and a half or three years ago. And honestly, it stemmed from, I do an annual report with my consolidated board. And for those that don't know, we have When health departments and social services agencies are consolidated, we have not a governing board but an advisory board. And so it's made up of, you know, a cast of people that are truly invested in the work that we do on the social services side. And every year I do an annual report and it's a deaths of despair report. And we cover, you know, deaths associated with substance use and alcohol and suicide and all the things.

And out of the report that year, our county had had, I think three, we'd lost three residents to suicide, three or four under the age of 18. And while it's very impactful when it's adults, it's really, really different. It's perceived differently when it's a young person.

And so the board came to me and they're like, we need to do something. What are we going to do? And my immediate reaction was, well, I don't know. I can't, I don't have this huge pool of money where I'm going to bring all these mental health care providers in. And so it was right about the time that the national suicide crisis line was, was making a transformation. They got rid of the 1-800 number and they shortened it to this 9-8-8, this really easy thing to remember because when you're in crisis, I don't even know my own mom's, I'm gonna do my, I my mom's telephone number, but how many people in your have anybody's phone number, do you have memorized it? Now they want me to remember this 1-800. Right. So they took that and I thought, okay, we're not gonna reinvent the wheel here.

And so with my public information officer and some people from social services and people from public health and my health education team, we took what was there and we invested not even a lot of money, but a lot of effort and energy and passion into just getting the information out.

You can call the number, can text the number, you can chat it from your computer. They're there 24 hours a day, seven days a week. 

Heather

That's an amazing resource. I just want to slow it down to make sure that I heard you. So 24-7. 24-7. Christmas, Thanksgiving. You can call or text. And this is for support. 

Sarah

Yep. And we talk about it being a crisis lifeline. And I think that is different for everyone. Like I said, what feels big and monumental to me doesn't feel that way to other people. And so that's the message that we've tried to convey is that there's nothing too big or too small. I love that. For you to make that phone call. Is it, did you have a bad day at work?

Are you struggling to pay the bills? You know, with teenagers, know, relationships are so hard and I'm not even intimate relationships, but like your friendships are really hard. so, you know, whatever your hard is that day, that's enough reason. 

Heather

This is so important. Sarah, I can't think of time. mean, Yeah, it just comes up a lot like, well, it's not that kind of hard. it's not, right, this comparative place where we can find ourselves of, that's for people who are in this situation. Support is available, whatever the hard is as you define it, no judgment or criteria. Right.

Right? Like I am overwhelmed at a level that I just can't quite get my snow globe to settle and I need to talk to somebody. I could call or text 988 and just say that to somebody and then they will support me directly or connect me to somebody who can help be with me and be present with me. Maybe I get a referral to a...

counselor of my own or something like that longer term. I do referral stuff too. I don't know enough about it. do. 

Sarah

And that was kind of one of those things that we really wanted to overcome too. When you talk about mental health or emotional struggles, those sorts of things, they're very personal. And especially when we talk to school age kids, I spend a lot of time with middle schoolers and high schoolers.

and they want to know, well, are they going to come to my house? Is somebody going to show up? there this trigger? And so we talk about those things. We talk about that it's solely based on the number that you're calling from and.

Nobody shows up at your house unless it's an emergency. And in that case, they refer you on. There's a bigger, broader discussion. And they evaluate, you all evaluate together if this is an emergency situation. Like, do we need to get you help right this minute? Or is this something that we can talk through and we can get you some resources tomorrow, later today, whatever it happens to be? Because... teenagers do get concerned with, you know, somebody just randomly showing up on the doorstep because I called this number and I disclosed that I was having a hard day. Because not every phone call warrants that, but there are phone calls that do warrant that. And so we talk about all of those things to try to ease their mind. And when we go in, because I told you, we're an Air Force family at my house.

and we talk about having a battle buddy, which to my husband is somebody that, you know, it is there thick or thin in the middle of the night, you know, wherever we happen to be in the world where, you know, things are not great. And so we talk about having a battle buddy.

And actually since I've seen you last that is our new messaging that's coming out is it says every hero needs a battle buddy And so we talk about you know, I have actually have the kids I'm like dig out your phone because they've all got one and I'm like is there somebody in your phone that You could call at 2 a.m. On a Tuesday and be like hey, I'm not okay. I need to talk and If there's not we introduce 988 as their battle buddy

so that it doesn't have to be this physical, tangible, it's my aunt Susie kind of person, because not everybody has that person in their life, and that's understandable. But we want to make sure that no matter where they are or what they're going through, that they have a battle buddy. So that's the newest messaging that's getting ready to launch in yearbooks and billboards and all the things.

Heather

One of the things that stands out to me as I hear you say that is I'm just reminded so much of our audience, you are heart forward, help others, go to it, in service. I am the helper. to hear you say, even heroes, what's the language, even heroes need a battle buddy or heroes need a, like, we all need somebody. I think back to your very first sharing around your own experience of the loss of your dad and how isolating that felt. The isolation.

that comes in large tragic life-changing ways and daily ways that this message of have a person, if that's a person in your phone, if that's a coach, a therapist, 988, even if you have all of those things, if it's certainly time of day that we...

I don't know, it doesn't have to feel as lonely. I don't think the feeling of loneliness by itself, right? We feel loneliness, so I wanted to normalize that. Sure. yeah, that there are people that we can reach out to and that, I mean, I think I said in the beginning how it's felt so important to me to be supported.

as somebody who's usually supporting to experience feeling supported. For some reason, sometimes I think as helpers we aren't the best at receiving support or asking for help. Asking for help. Because I don't know if that's our identity or our role or our comfort or where it comes from, but I'm so much more comfortable being the person that

you know, call me, because I will be the support, but for me to make the call is such a different, vulnerability and thing to work through. And I mean, part of this podcast is like, and we have to sometimes be reminded that we are human too. You know, we're all human in this.

feel like last time we talked about this on the same line, you have something. Is it you who has a like, ask me about me? Yes. Is that related to this or about something different? 

Sarah

So our messaging initially started with you matter, two words, period, you matter. Then for listeners who are not in our area,

we sustained one of the largest employers in our county closed. We were just coming off of Tropical Storm Fred that had devastated Haywood County, then the mill closure, then Helene. So our county was impacted in a major way in the span of about three or four years. Big, big loss.

And so in the wake of Hurricane Helene, the messaging changed and morphed from You Matter to Ask Me About Me, which largely came from the helpers out on ATVs with pack mules delivering supplies. I mean, I spent... you know, we spent, I don't even remember how many days upfront in the shelter 24 hours a day, people that were just showing up and they were just doing the thing, whatever we needed. And so it was largely targeted at the helpers because you've shown up, like I said, on a pack mule l with supplies, you know, to the people who live, you know, way out. who can't get to town to get the basics. There's no electricity, there's no cell phone service, there's none of that.

But then the helpers needed help. 

Heather

Because they're, I mean, I'm thinking back even as you described the period after you lost your dad, right? You're in figure it out mode. Yeah. And at a certain point, the figuring it out, there's a space. Yes. Where ask me about me because I'm human too. 

Sarah

Yeah. And so it morphed then.

And since then, we've really started doing some more intentional messaging, know, veterans and teenagers and, you know, just trying to meet the need because the messaging is the same for everyone and yet it's not.

The message I want everyone to hear is, we are here, there is someone, we will help. But the messaging for adolescents needs to be a little different than it is for our veteran population. What's that and of public health messaging, right? Where it's population and? Yes, these very specific demographics. Right, tailored.

And so it kind of moves and shakes and changes as we go. And we've ordered swag in 100 different colors and 100 different forms. And well, this demographic really likes refrigerator magnets. And this one really likes a rubber bracelet that they can wear and they can share with their friends.

Yeah, and so our most recent one is like, looks like a luggage tag that's meant for their book bags that says, I'm here to listen. Such an important effort. So it's been a huge passion project of mine specifically, but it's been so much bigger than that. It's been this intra-agency kind of countywide.

You know, we've got this really great cast of players that brings so much to how we continue to move this initiative forward. And like I said, we didn't reinvent the wheel. Yeah. We use this incredible resource that was already there. 

Heather

Which is part of what makes it so powerful. Because if this is nationwide, then wherever you are, you know, out here, we're kind of... straddled between different states out here anyway. So to know that wherever you are, if you're traveling, if you hear it now, like you can think about this one number everywhere and powerful to hear you talk about, again, for you kind of inspiration wise, both your own loss and a collective loss in community. And then the connection across others that has had his, you know, come in and support. feels really important. mean, even to hear my own, just the language and I think we're making progress. 

Sarah

Yeah. And so it's funny, know, I mean, we started talking about gratitude and the things that I'm grateful for and for initiatives like that to continue to grow out of a place that felt so lonely and so isolating and so grief stricken. I'm glad I don't have to be either or. I'm glad that the situation has become both. 

Heather

And that right now you can hold those. Because I'm with you. I don't know that it's not a matter of switching. I'm going to switch from one to the other. I think of loss. in grief and loss of folks is right. That's just now like a golden thread that's woven through the quilt of my life and my memories that will be there and coexist. So I think it's this, where does it now coexist? And part of, mean, so much, when we think about the and of things and where we get stuck, to me, the stuckness here is in the not allowing.

You know, like the noticing and the allowing and the tending to or honoring of whatever it is. Yeah. Right. There's not a right or wrong way to feel. There's not, like you just said, there's not a right way to grieve. People grieve differently.

So some just self-permissioning and grace around noticing that I do or don't. Maybe because sometimes it's like I don't feel grief right now and do now I feel bad about that or I do feel it and I feel like I shouldn't back to shoulding on yourself like.

This business of here is the culturally approved way to feel about a certain thing in a certain way at a certain time for a certain time, and now you should be done. That it is what it is. And that support in that, whatever it is, is part of what you are working on. Grateful story is always a gift.

I know this story is important for you to share and just appreciate you being open and sharing that with us today in this larger context too in conversation. Because it's tricky even for me, part of where it gets Andy for me in this discussion is to hold grief that's of that intensity.

Next to some of these. It's like big, is there a big G and a little G grief? It feels like that. It feels like I want to, I wish there were some other, like grief feels so big, it needs some categories or something. You mentioned the hurricane. From my experience, and this is, you know, I'm from the rural Florida Panhandle, not my first hurricane, my first mountain hurricane I've joined right among everybody else.

And for so long, it's been a little bit over a year now, but when people would check on us, right? So our community was also impacted in Henderson County. We were a family who, everybody's okay. So just to understand the intensity of this, lots of property loss, lots of lives lost in this event.

And so when you're here and your family is okay and people ask how you are, gratitude is what you're like, we're okay. And for me, I don't know if this is true for you, also lots of grief and guilt and guilt, guilt for gratitude, a tangle of it. Like I feel...

relief, I feel grateful that I'm okay, and I feel tremendous grief for the loss that others experienced. I also feel grief for land loss. Yeah. So this is again a place where I really want to stretch the boundaries when I think of significant loss. Has this happened again in Florida? Like the proper, the roots that raised me.

The entire forest laid on top of itself. I still feel grief when I see the tree line of a forest that I grew up in and knew like the back of my hand that I now cannot find my way through, doesn't exist. And that is loss. It's a very different kind of loss that I don't think we talk about. So to be in the experience of hurricane, land loss, human life lost and to be okay is a real tangle of, and then you feel like, who am 

I to even feel grief? I didn't lose my family. Right? the, again, for me, the tangle life, like what is okay to feel and what isn't is where this and for me gets sticky. Is that it feels like there is a, an okay combination and context for these words.

And I experienced them a lot together in different situations. I don't know. What is it? You mentioned guilt. there more you want to say there? What was gratitude and grief look like for you in, in like collective, yeah, mean, disaster. 

Sarah

I think I'm thinking about Helene. and I'm one of those run into the building kind of people for whatever reason. I tend to run into situations that most people would be like, I'm not going in there.

I think I really struggled much like you because we were so blessed and so fortunate. In my personal life, my biggest loss were the items in my refrigerator and freezer. Our house was, our home, our property was spared. My children and my family and my husband's family were all good.

And so some tangible, completely replaceable things. And so to watch people, because like I said, I mean, we manned the shelter for a while. Watching people come in with everything they had gone in a bag.

that I would carry my groceries in the house in, there's this guilt of, why me? Why was I spared? Why were we so fortunate? Why?

Why didn't we experience a loss like that too? mean, most of that is attributed to just geographical location. It's where my house sits. And it's so present with you, right? Like it's so clear. Yes. Because it's like... Like, I mean, it literally was, you know, the vast majority of was where you were in relation to where the water rose.

and we were just outside the line. So we were, you know, spared and incredibly fortunate through all of that. 

Heather

And it's so stark, like I don't notice it, disaster like that, crisis, I'm gonna call it crisis. To me is when I feel the great, you know, the...

the gratitude and like both so strongly at the same time because it is so, I mean, we had, know, tree on the house, tree down, like all that, and you're so glad to be okay. And it's so painful all at the same time. And that feels to me, at least in that situation, like it felt okay to feel that way for a minute. And then it seemed like I was supposed to be over it.

and we're gonna get back to normal, this persistent grief, and maybe just me, I would say, should have maybe led with this, as somebody who would've, like, I think I'm just bittersweet, I think of, I'm sad a lot, I love a lot, and as such, I think I'm sad a fair amount. So I'm holding that a lot anyway, but it does feel a little outside of, like, you're okay, you should feel okay.

And so in that one too, I guess I just want to normalize so much of what I want this podcast to be is a normalizing of letting whatever it is be true. Yeah. You know, that many things can be, you can be deeply grateful and grief for others who have lost everything and all that. Not only can it, but the fact is it does, it exists in your body, whether we are in your feeling.

Heather

If you're having that feeling, you're having that feeling, whether you want to or not, whether you wish you were or not, whether you wish it was different, whether it's confusing and disorienting. So I think with this, it's those pieces too that I want to, I don't even know if normalize is the right word, Sarah truly. I don't know if this is, if y'all have to tell me.

I have found the work of Francis Weller, Wild Edge of Sorrow is the book that I was digging into this year. And the broader context that he describes grief I thought was really helpful. Maybe in helping me feel a little less isolated and feeling grief in tragedy like we've talked about and as an intense feeler, loss.

I mean, it's such a sinking. And again, maybe we're talking about big G grief and little G grief. But there's a lot. I mean, you know this. I am staring at the transition. I promise I'm not going to talk about this on every podcast, but it is possible that I created this podcast just to support myself through the leaving of Nash to go to college. It's another so.

Another one I would say, I don't know if it's anticipatory grief.

But the, He is leaving and I am sad. I am pre-sad I've got some pre-sadness to my sad. I am preset about him leaving. What that one does, it brings me straight into the pre-sad and to gratitude too.

Heather 

And if I let it, so on the plus side of it, it helps ground me to like, this isn't going to be this way for much longer. Yeah. Right. Cause we don't always know when change is coming. In this case I do. And so I'm pre sad about the loss that is not only him at home, but the dynamic of our family that he's part of on a daily basis. And so it can bring me back into, let me be deeply grateful for the time that I have.

it also can just keep me stuck and sad. And then I miss it. So that's what I have to look out for on the getting stuck side of that. And is I can, in my natural tendency to be in sorrow, I can stay there and miss the thing that still is here. It's still here. So that's another one that I, I don't know if I think about a lot, it just feels present.

Sarah

You know, it's, that's the Does that not grief? that not grief? Yes, but that's first time I've heard you say that. the perspective on that of, I don’t always know that change is coming. Yes. And so you have this really. unique insight and yes the loss will feel immeasurable the moment he drives out of the driveway for the last time but how many times in life if you knew that change were coming would you have held on just a little bit tighter or made one more memory that's the gratitude of it the blessing of it it's a huge blessing correct and We are pre-sad. 

Heather

Yes, and I just have to be careful to not miss the blessing. 

Sarah

But what a great opportunity and what a great perspective that is. 

Heather

Because I think loss comes in so many different ways. There's loss we know it's come, right? There's that sort of, there's tragic, don't know it's going to happen, it happens. There's loss that... I'm choosing, which for me is I'm leaving a job. I am letting go of...

I'm fresh in this too, some projects that I was excited about. And as a really excited person, I get excited about too many things and realize I cannot sustain them all. So I have to let things go. am choosing. And that's another place where I feel like there's not much of a permission slip to have a feeling about it because you chose it. Right? To be like, you wanted to leave and now you're in grief about it, but I'm here to say, yes.

And that's another one where even in making a decision, gonna be pre, I know that I'm gonna feel grief about this and the and that I have to stand in is what is it that I need, right? Just knowing that that's gonna be part of it, but that to me, that is still loss that I have to tend to. So same things for me is how do I notice it, allow it and honor it?

And if I don't allow it to be true, then I can't get to the how do I honor it and tend to what I need in that. So that's where to me this expanded acknowledging of different types of loss. I think it happens a lot in the workplace that we don't.

Sarah

sure and knowledge and you and I have talked about that and even you you have been present with my team when we've talked about those things. We in Haywood County are very much back to grassroots public health. It's it's not fancy. It's not flamboyant. We don't have 14 program like we are truly kind of back to core back to what I feel like is core public health.

But we weren't when I came in as the health director in 21. We were doing a lot of different things. Life was shifting because of the pandemic. People come and go. And when you came in, we sat down collectively as a leadership team and said, what do we wanna keep? What do we wanna get rid of? And what do we wish we were doing that we don't have the space to do right now?

and we listened and we decided how we were gonna bridge the gap. And you're right, there's a moment where you're like, oh no, we're not gonna do this anymore. Even though, I will say there were some things that we were doing that maybe other agencies were doing better than we were doing. Same service, different agency, and their outcomes were just better. So we acknowledged that we weren't necessarily the best in the business doing whatever it was we were doing.

But letting go of some of those things allowed us to focus on substance use prevention, to focus on mental health initiatives, to focus on the things that the leadership team said, this is what we want to do. But we may not necessarily be able to do it because we are excited people. We got excited about a lot of things and we just don't have the manpower.

We don't have the resources, don't have the money, we don't have the time, we don't have the energy. And so I really tried to listen in those moments for us to be able to grieve the loss of what we had been doing for so long in certain areas and honor that for a long time we did it and we did it well.

but the landscape is changing. And we're going to be great doing something else. 

Heather

It's such an important. I mean, aside from the st-strategery, right? So I'm gonna like strategy hat aside. Where we're always looking at what do we need to do, change, not do, stop, start, all of that. And at, in, whether in crisis, so we have to modify our, our programs and services or landscape shift or a number of things. The slowing down of a moment to tend to the transition.

I just want to put a plug in for. Because, I forget, I can't promise where I read this, there's, read describing that transition is a specific kind of change where the first phase is always a letting go. Right? We talk about change management, I'm doing air quotes.

I get turned around with that word because I don't think we're just trying to change things because that just means different. We're trying to improve them and we can't actually manage each other. can inspire and all that. Either way, if we think about change, honoring the different types of change helps shape how you support them.

Change that we're responding to that we didn't ask for is one flavor. Change that we're driving is something else. And a transition from one thing to another means we are letting something go. Whether it's if we're combining agencies, maybe it's a culture shift. It could be a long time program that we have a lot of, I mean we are pouring our hearts into this work.

Yeah. And sometimes a program does need to shift or move to a partner and to honor the ending, to tell some story. What are we holding on to from that? What do we want to take with us? What did we learn that we want to take? Some slowing down. Right. To tend to the collective experience of

Yeah, the holding on the both and of the holding on and the letting go. Of the gratitude we're grateful now to have space to do things that we want to do. We're excited about that. And sometimes we just double down on like, we're excited about the new thing that I think it's important to shine a light a bit on. on the letting go, because it is, think, more often than we maybe even notice, is a loss. And I think after all the work that we did here on COVID debriefs and hurricane debriefs, I guess I've just felt that things experienced in the collective to make a little space to be honored in the collective, just... feels like a really important, I'm not saying it's healing and we have a session and everything's better, but in honoring, attending, a tenderness, because I think culturally we're just so like, we've talked about this already, like we're so go, go, figured out what's the strategy, we're launching a new thing. I'm very curious about what more we could do to honor the transition if we realize that that means there is a loss of some sort. And in that, that we have to then lean into holding excitement or gratitude and grief and all of it together. And that it's okay, it doesn't mean I'm not excited about the new thing we're going to build now. Or excited or grateful to have more space, you know, this way or that. I am also feeling this about this. so to feel back to the very first thing that the very first word I wrote down on my sheet today was isolating. Right? 

How often in such a busy crowded world life that we live in, it can feel isolating.

So I'm such a fan of, inappropriately so, in ways that are context appropriate and meaningful and feel safe for people. Like notice, allow, honor, and that honoring can be an individual thing, but can, it's really powerfully a collective thing.

Yeah. I'm like, oh, you just want to talk about how everything is sad. That's not what I'm trying to do. I think that just for anybody else like me who is sad a lot and grieving and feels lost deeply in a lot of ways that feel like you maybe don't feel like you ought to feel so much loss about, it just feels true to me. And especially I'll say, I still have some, as I hear myself say this out loud and I look at you in the eyes and honor the loss that you have experienced. I'm like, am I really talking about trees right now and programs? No, no, we talked earlier. know, but I'm just saying it is in real time coming up as, and hear me say it's not all the same and. And it is. Loss. Like, ugh. Yeah.

Heather

I didn't take a breath. What more do we want to say, Sarah, to folks when we think about the and? And whether gratitude and grief is emotion or context, where we get stuck, how we find forward, what tools do we want to make sure that we've excavated from our own experiences that we might offer out? Again, not that we have answers, but just to surface them in case it's helpful to somebody else. So.

Given the tangliness of all of this, I guess if there's anything else you want to say, I mean about any of it really, but where it gets sticky or tricky and how you keep finding forward in it.

Sarah

I you know, as we sat at lunch today celebrating Ashley and all the things, because you and I are a little older than Ashley when I look back on all of those things. Things just, I learned through the darkest moments of my life that my circle was small by design and I have learned to really hold on to the people and the things that bring me joy even when it is messy and hard. There are a few key players in my life, yourself included, that stick with me through the messy when I have some crazy idea, like they put their pack on and they're like, I'm suited up, I'm going with you.

Those people are so important in all of this, which I think is why the Battle Buddies thing resonates with me so much. When I go talk to high schools and middle schools, I take my director of nursing with me, I take Emily with me, because Emily is that person. She is that.

I will put on my pack and I will go with you. And she does. You are that way. My husband is that way. Like, I go to him with some crazy outlandish things and I'm like, I'm gonna need you to support me through this. And he's like, game on, let's go. So finding those people in your life, surrounding yourself with people like that in your life, it's so important and it's...

It's life changing and it doesn't take 50 of those people. That's exactly what I was, I'm like biting my tongue because I'm to get better at not literally just named three of you. I literally just named three of you. it's so much, and I said, there's a life before then and a life after and quality wins out over quantity every day.

Every day quality with your people quality with my people not the number of people 

Heather

I Am that way also yeah small. 

Sarah

In a world where where social media tells you you have to have likes and followers and followers. Find the people that will pick up their pack and go with you.

Heather

Deep connection. Yes as an antidote to this feeling of isolation that you mentioned that we've talked about several times. Because I think you can have it, I'll speak for myself, not you in the external. I can have a thousand LinkedIn connections and sit in my real-life messiness of snow globe, can't see my way forward and feel completely isolated and alone. Absolutely.

Right, so I think what we're talking about is cultivating, because it takes some tending, and this is where I have to be mindful, because I can get kind of up and ahead of it, like the slowing down, the tending to those relationships, because they're not automatic. 

Sarah

No.

Heather

You know, it takes, I'm going to be in the mess with you, you're going to be in the mess with me. What does that mean? What does that look like? When I think back on all of the context that I've considered grief related, connection is the life raft. Yeah. Yeah. Meaningful. I can really be myself in this. Cause there's not like experience of grief and it's going to rip, it rips you down to Like there's no pretending. If you need to see the suited up, shiny version, like I'll see you somewhere else, but that's not what I need right now. Like I need puffy eyes, sweatpants, disoriented. Don't know. I'm not sure I'm okay.

Sarah

Like, yeah, the fact that my kids ate chips and dip for dinner last night because I just did not have, 

Heather

Cannot, cannot give and the gift that it is. So I said something, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about those of us who are in kind of in the helper role and how tricky sometimes it is to receive help. I think I want to remind myself again and everybody else.

What a gift it feels like to be that person for somebody. Like remember what it feels like. like, cause I think we think we don't want to be a burden for somebody else. What is that then saying about all the help that we're giving? Do we feel like people are burdensome? No. So like honoring the life cycle of that, that part of being a helper needs to be receiving help so that we don't create some stigma around being helped. Yeah.

And helped whatever that means. I think we probably have complicated language or feelings about what that word really means. I'm really talking about support. You know, I might be talking about you can't actually help me with what I'm dealing with. You can just sit there on the floor with me while I deal with it and while I find my way to the surface. Or be on the phone with me.

or to the 988 folks answering the phone, like just be with me right now in this. So maybe that's, I think my takeaway from all of this, for me, two things, and then I'm curious for you what comes up when you think about the conversation today. One is I'm reminded that across contexts in this one,

What I know I need is to notice what I'm feeling, allow it to be true, and then honor or tend to that in whatever ways. And if I can't even notice it or I can't make it all the way through the thing, but like letting go of it shouldn't feel this way or I should be this, like let it be what it is and honoring it either just on my own in some way or getting some support around it.

And then I think a thread for me around the counter to isolation is just around connection, around cultivating. And I would say, I'm gonna, not even cultivating because I find myself at times saying to my therapist, whatever, if like I'm feeling lonely, I'm feeling alone, like, oh, well maybe you need to go cultivate some connections. And then I'm like, I just have to reach out to them. I have them. I'm just not reaching out. So the call to connection, would say. Not only like some of us maybe have these people who you know would show up for you and with you. And you got to let them know. And sometimes you can see...

Sometimes we just show up. You know what I'm saying? Like, oh, Sarah might not ask me, but I can kind of tell something's going on. So I'm just going to show up. Like, how do we show up for each other? Life is a lot. Humaning is a lot. The context is complicated. Holidays are coming. Y'all, it's probably going be 2026 by the time you hear this, but I'm sitting next to a Christmas tree in our office right now as we do this.

Holidays are filled with like, it should be joyful and we know it also feels a whole kind of bunch of other ways.

But yeah, how do we show up for each other and with each other? What do you want to leave us with? Anything else? 

Sarah

I think you're right. think it's a willingness. am y'all. I am the world's worst to be like, I got this. Don't worry about it. I'm busy helping everybody busy helping everybody else. Call me in a week and we'll talk about me. just allowing those people in. You're right. mean, it's impossible to. Sometimes it's impossible in that moment to even know what you need. So true. just allowing those people in. And we’ve talked about Big G and Little G grief, the comparison. We all carry it differently. Sometimes it's heavier than others. I'm like you. one of those people that feels very deeply.

And so just recognizing those things and sitting in them for a minute and crying or eating ice cream or whatever that means. But allowing people to show up for me has been hard for me. That's one I'm still learning. So I am grateful for people in my life that just show up and say, you didn't call, but I'm going to be here. You didn't tell me you needed me, but here I am.

Heather

Y'all hug your people. Yeah. Reach out. Make space. We're so busy. I mean, so often I'm like, can't show up for you because I'm busy being helpful in some other way to go, really though? Like maybe the most supportive thing I can do today is just sit here. Yeah. So just.

honoring the impact of that presence. yeah, what can we do to respond to our own or to support others in this not feeling so isolated? Yeah. I hope this podcast can be a little dash of that just by sharing what it's like for us, for guests about it all. I hope it helps people feel a little bit more seen. And then with a little call to action and a nudge to connect, whether to us or, you know, whoever. We're probably at the two hour mark. So I need to wrap this up. I actually have to wrap this up because it's therapy day for me. And so I need to head out. Thank you all if you're still with us on this podcast. We covered a lot of ground today. Yeah.

Some heavy ground, some joyful ground, some very and content. Y'all stay curious. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being there for each other. Take care of you and each other.

Sarah, thank you for being here again. Thanks for having me. Again. Can't wait to keep talking about the and. I don't think it's going away. Y'all, if I felt like we were going to solve this, but I don't. think this is the messiness that is the human experience. Yeah, it makes me feel better knowing folks like you are in it with me. I'm grateful. Me too. Bye, y'all. See you next time.

Heather

If you or someone you know is experiencing thoughts of self-harm, feeling hopelessness or loneliness, or otherwise just feel stuck in concerning ways, I want to remind you that there's someone who wants to support you and to ask that you please reach out to them.

Reminder that in the US you can call or text 988 to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline and a real-life person will be with you in the messiness no matter how big or small. Thank you for your care and connection, and I'm so glad you're here.

Heather

The stand in the and podcast is supported by human-centered strategy where we help leaders and teams build connection and strategy in complexity so that everyone can flourish. To learn more or to work with us please visit us online at human-centeredstrategy.com or message me on LinkedIn.