“Stand in the &” the Song & Storytelling about Writing It

In this episode Heather sits down with long-time friend and singer songwriter Eric Erdman for storytelling around Eric’s background and the experience of writing the song Stand in the & together. They chat about “the ANDs” in a career within music and in the song writing journey. Through stories of co-creating music in real time, they highlight the messiness, patience, trust, courage, and vulnerability required to bring something new into the world. You’ll hear all the background and next steps (sort of), and at the end of the episode you’ll hear Eric sing and share “Stand in the &” recorded for the first time. 

Disclaimer: The views and opinions shared in this episode belong solely to the host and the guest and do not necessarily reflect those of their employer or affiliated organizations.

Host: Heather Gates, MPH, Owner & Strategy Partner, Human-Centered Strategy, LLC 
Guest: Eric Erdman, Owner & Magic Maker, Eric Erdman Music

Resources
Eric Erdman’s Website
Eric Erdman’s Instagram

Connect About the Podcast
Email us with your ideas and feedback: connect@standintheand.com
Visit the Podcast for more episodes
See what we’re up to on Instagram with all things “&”

To request strategy partner & facilitation support from Human-Centered Strategy, visit us online at https://human-centeredstrategy.com/contact/

Purchase the Merch
Stickers, mugs, and touchstones can be purchased here https://human-centeredstrategy.com/gifts/

Transcript

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Technical Note: Show notes are created with the help of Riverside.FM AI and thoughtfully reviewed by us. They’re meant to capture the spirit of the conversation, though they may not reflect every word exactly.

Heather 
Hello this is Heather Gates and I welcome you to the stand in the and podcast where we have honest conversation about the messy complexity of the human experience, where we get stuck, and how we find forward in the and of it all where many things are true at once. 

This podcast is designed especially for those of us who want to make things more beautiful and better for everyone and sometimes need reminding that we are human too. I’m so glad you’re here. 

Heather (00:05.55)
We should start the podcast. Before I contender, continue. Well, that was a mashup. What do you think? What do you think I was going to say?

Eric (00:39.32)
on Tinder. Continue and render.

Heather (00:49.998)
Ponder. I was going to say before we keep pondering, but I'm gonna sh-t together because I got excited. Or nervous.

Eric (00:55.982)
Which I love and detentions is a great word.

Heather (01:00.846)
Okay. Let's talk about and tensions for a second. Sarah Banks, who's been on the podcast, is actually the one who invented the word and tensions. Like to be intentional, but to be and tension. I'm actually on the podcast, not talking about and tensions like she is. I'm trying to say and tensions, like the tensions in the end. It's a little bit different.

Eric (01:07.98)
Listen to that.

Eric (01:15.0)
Right.

Heather (01:30.604)
But everybody, including Sarah, thinks I'm saying and attentions, including you.

Eric (01:36.27)
including me, I was like, is a great word. Have intentions with your andness. Whether it happened on purpose or not, doesn't matter.

Heather (01:38.734)
So good. Happy Accident. Okay.

Heather (01:48.152)
Well, there you go. Just trust the process. All right, we should do this.

Um, also before we start, I haven't been recovering from a cold and have some out. feel like I have.

Eric (02:04.686)
Check one, two, Mic. Emily, check one, two. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, one, two, check.

Heather (02:06.68)
Pause.

Heather (02:13.228)
Yes, Emily, we wish you were here. All right. Welcome back to the podcast, y'all. At the table with me today is my longtime friend and singer songwriter, Eric Erdman. Grateful to have you today. Thanks for passing by sort of on your way home.

Eric (02:28.354)
I'm grateful to be here.

Eric (02:34.434)
Yeah, I was in Wake Forest last night playing and it wasn't too far away, although I would drive to Alaska to be on your podcast.

Heather (02:41.442)
Well, thanks. I appreciate it. Always good to have fans. As you know, speaking of fans, introduce yourself to the people.

Eric (02:50.69)
I am a songwriter from Mobile, Alabama. Well, Mobile, Alabama is where I get my mail, but I'm basically a citizen of the road. I live on, I live touring and going to Nashville to write. spend much more time in Nashville than I do anywhere else, but that's it. I've been a lifer musician playing gigs and writing songs.

Heather (03:11.47)
Did you say you're a song, primarily lead, identify as a songwriter? And the singing part is just kind of, we have to sing a song to write a song.

Eric (03:15.989)
Yeah, I think so.

Eric (03:20.79)
I love to perform and it's definitely two different crafts. but it's, I've always played gigs and they're kind of self-sustaining and I would feel missing something missing if I weren't doing that. But it's like, I don't have to actively work at that. I feel like I am a songwriter who gets to play gigs. They all dried up. I would make some actions to have more of them because they do fulfill me.

Heather (03:48.174)
And that's not always been the story though, right? So early on it was more like your gigs and cover stuff and how has that changed over?

Eric (03:57.482)
It's just what I'm doing right now. But it's just like you can't just start with a thousand song catalog and have people care about them or know them. So just do what you have to do to get in the door. early on, it was not as many original singer songwriter gigs, even though that was the goal and the intention.

Heather (04:22.382)
Did you say it on purpose? Yes. Nice. You can laugh. I feel like you're about to pass out. Way to work that in. That's for you, Sarah Banks. That was an intentional use of intention. That's right. It will allow you to stay. Ashley will decide if it gets to stay in. The ultimate boss will decide. So it's changed a little bit, but not because your vision for it changed, just because that's the process that got you.

Eric (04:38.508)
Okay, thank you.

Eric (04:49.71)
I feel like it. Yes. I mean, I always, this was the hope where I'm at now. I'm in an amazing spot. Actually, you caught me in a beautiful, beautiful era of my art.

Heather (04:58.615)
on the upside.

And when you say always, like you've had this vision for what you're going to be up to since you were pretty little. What's the earliest you remember and like, was the dream?

Eric (05:08.044)
Yeah, what?

At my cousin's wedding, the band took a break and my mom could not find me. I was the ring bearer at the wedding. And when she couldn't find me, because I had crawled onto the stage and tried to grab the microphone. old you? Three. What? So I always loved performing and, you know, music, obviously. And then at about eight, my brother and I and our three next door neighbors, we just like to make songs. So since I was eight years old, we've been

Heather (05:24.102)
does it?

Eric (05:40.622)
creating songs.

Heather (05:41.792)
I didn't realize you had been doing this since you were so young.

Eric (05:44.322)
we would sit around the old tape recorder and, you know, with the red and black button. Sweet. And that was my introduction to it.

Heather (05:51.51)
And how old were you when you got your first, like somebody paid you money to sing a song?

Eric (05:55.948)
I would have been like 16.

Heather (05:58.094)
And y'all were songwriting way before like

Eric (06:00.472)
That's eight years. was, I was a veteran at that point. Yeah, but we were just doing it cause we, it was fun. And it has remained fun.

Heather (06:02.966)
You all would get together and make.

Heather (06:09.698)
And you've continued to just show up and let it be fun this whole time. It's always fascinating to me as somebody who has, you know, I mean a few core ones, but then any given day, some other deep interest, how focused your interest has been your whole life and your whole career laser focused and how, you know, just, it's just interesting to see how all that kind of has poured into One Direction.

Eric (06:34.574)
Well, that's the interesting thing, because I've listened to this podcast because it's your podcast. also think it's really, really good podcast. doesn't just... No, I'm not pandering to you. I really enjoy it. And I think it has something for a lot of people, including myself. And when you asked me to be on here, I was honored, but I was thinking like, what and am I standing in? Cause I'm singularly focused and have been my entire life. But I will have to say I fully lashed myself to the mast of music.

at an early age and so whatever I have to do to get there. But in order to get where I've been, it's a whole lot of and.

Heather (07:11.222)
Yeah, like what? Like what would you name some of the ands you feel like you've had to stand in to be on this journey?

Eric (07:13.6)
Eric (07:17.512)
I holistic or not like not being in charge of what, what the path has to look like. That's the, that's the thing. It's like, need to be in charge of showing up and, and intentionally like putting myself at to work. And, but the opportunities that will present themselves are nothing that you would ever imagine. So I have played in the buddy rich big band, which I had no vision of being.

doing anything in that world at all. I've played with Nadira Shakur in the R &B aspect. I've played with Carly Simon and Radney Foster. And I'm not saying that to brag on who I've played with. I'm saying starting out at 16, you couldn't have... There's nothing in my mind that would have ever put me on that path. But because I was showing up every day, because I was serving the greater music umbrella, and then those

through the process allowed me to get to where I am doing the thing that I dreamed of.

Heather (08:20.43)
And a lot of ants come, I mean, my curiosity there is like, it's both, I've been focused and open or focused on the big picture and not on the detail. There's that piece and even on the dream itself, right? I'm focused and open to what the dream is. Not just I'm open to the process, but I'm going to let the thing kind of take on a form of its own too. So holding that tension of

Eric (08:32.502)
One million percent.

Heather (08:50.006)
I'm showing up every day to water the orchid and a little unattached. And what's interesting about that unattachment, right? So much of it is kind of a disconnect from, or like surrendering to the uncertainty. In my industry, often we use uncertainty kind of feeling like a scary thing. But in your case, like there's uncertainty about like what awesome stuff has, might be.

Eric (08:52.856)
Yes.

Eric (09:18.612)
It's exciting mystery to you get. I mean, it can be uncertain as well.

Heather (09:24.214)
In some hard times, so let's not sugarcoat, you know, because you are a very sunny side up human.

Eric (09:29.164)
Yeah. No, without a doubt, there's been tough times. mean, it's not a great thing, but there were many times I slept in my car because I was in Nashville and I needed to write it with these people. And I had $300 in the check-in account. I could have gotten hotel room if I wanted to zero of my money in the world. And so I'm not trying to say everything's peachy, but if you show up,

Heather (09:53.517)
Yeah.

Eric (09:57.12)
There's plenty and everybody does it differently too, maybe more so than any other industry. So I'm not saying my way is correct.

Heather (10:04.238)
No one on this podcast saying that their way is the right way. We're just showing up to say, how we're figuring it out.

Eric (10:09.73)
But because I, some of my favorite musicians and songwriters, they feel like either the muse speaks to me today or we don't write a song. Like it's just, get drawn to it or nothing and they're brilliant and I wouldn't want them to change a thing. But for me, I felt like, I'm not in control. If people resonate with my songs, I try real hard, but they're, I'm putting it into the universe. It's a message in a bottle. It has to do with the ocean. Not with me. Like I'm trying to.

put it out there and hopefully somebody resonates with it. can't fully control that, but I can show up and I can do something. So I felt like, you know, in my mind, I don't get to call myself a carpenter and then just wait until I feel like building a house. I get up and build another house the next day. And that's how I've always approached it.

Heather (10:59.67)
It's definitely not, it's an interesting curiosity. mean, we've had one specific podcast on creativity so far, this, what is your, blah, your discipline around your craft. I mean, an example, we were just talking about this. You have written a song, I mean, you're writing songs all the time, but your Fresh Song Fridays, for example, where every,

Friday, have decided some, I don't even know where the idea came from, but once upon a time, you're like, I'm going to release a song every Friday. That is an intense amount of output. And, especially as somebody who's trying to create content and how to, at least for me, like life, life's and things don't work out, but like, however you have figured out to rain or Sean or tech glitches or how are you patch it together? You're writing and you're releasing every Friday, you're disciplined for the craft.

Eric (11:34.922)
is pretty intense.

Heather (11:56.684)
Like is what you're just saying, right? It's not like I'm not feeling it today. And I don't know if you get in those spots, you seem to stay pretty inspired, but I imagine there days where you're like, I could really use some sleep or something.

Eric (12:07.278)
For sure. mean, that's exactly how I approach it. It's a craft. I, and I want to be better at the craft. I don't care how many thousands of songs I've written and I'm fortunate enough to be writing with people I really look up to and I'm inspired by. And it's like, that's exactly right. But the, it's the aspect of that thing. Like that's the part I could control. I can show up and stand in it and really,

Heather (12:22.028)
like me for I'll take that.

Eric (12:37.166)
you know, work at it and get better. Of course there's seasons where it's a little less fertile than others. And when the muse strikes like it does for my other friends, that's a goldmine. That's even better. Cause you know, you've already worked to where you have the mental dexterity or what, the, know, they say it's a muscle. don't know about that, but you know, it's a, it's a habit. you, cause I think a lot of creativity, um, you can get in your head a lot where you're, you're not sure.

If what you're doing is valid or you're not sure if that's the way you should twist it and you're not sure and you're not sure and you're not sure. Well, when you do it all the time, those voices get really quiet so that when the muse hits, like you don't second guess yourself. It's I do, do what it's noon on Tuesday. Of course I'm writing a song.

Heather (13:25.228)
Yeah, and I do think there's just that back to voices in your head, because I think everybody listening can relate to those kind of things that come up. And there's nothing like evidence and history to quiet the voices. Right, when that comes up for you and it's like, I don't know if this matters. And you're like, well, I've written a jillion songs before and a bajillion people care about it. So it's probably going to be okay. Right. Versus when you're starting out, maybe that's harder. Right.

Seems like that would be a lot easier and to stand in now. And also it just seems to me like you're a bit detached from the who, the other side, the result side anyway. So you're like, doesn't really matter to me if anybody likes it. I mean, yes and no, that's another and.

Eric (14:08.45)
Well, there's a lot of ands in my world and that's another one. So I am writing something that gives me peace and inspires, makes me feel good about what I've lived through. And I hope someone out there has felt the same thing and been unable to say that so that I'm helping them get something out for their chest.

Heather (14:29.55)
It's always been, I think that's an important point, is even though you love the craft, as I recall, it always is about sharing it. There's something about this process that for you does not feel complete unless it's

Eric (14:41.006)
Well, again, another and. It's both. I have songs that are my darlings that I play and the crowd's like, And so it doesn't make me dislike the song or think the song is less. It's like, that's the one I'll play when I'm in my living room. These other ones I thought were pretty good and they just love them to death. I'm like, well, that's the one that's helping them with something. So it makes me love that song more than I did.

Heather (15:07.106)
on that day and they change. So yeah, but it's always been about, I mean, I guess maybe since you were three, wanting to hold the mic, is to make music, but to share it.

Eric (15:20.524)
Yeah. I mean, you know, and that's why, like recently I've been fortunate enough to, you know, get a couple of gold records and a Grammy nomination, these things that I could never have dreamed of. And it's like, that has nothing to do with patting me on the back. I don't need it. know, that's not, that really, I mean, thanks, but it's like, that's not why I do it. mean, provably I did it for 25 years without them and I was still going to do it the next day anyway, but it shows it's a mark that

that many people heard the thing you created. And that does matter to me because that is the goal. That is the dream.

Heather (15:57.836)
Yeah. It just, right. mean, to have been doing it that long, it's just, it's a striking journey to be that committed for that long. Right. And, and almost it's an interesting, like, what else would you do? It's such a part of you. It's like, well, I can't not do it. Right. When something's been like, that's such a, your identity really, you're like, there's not an option for me not to do this. And.

You're also not just kind of sitting around and letting that tend to itself is there's this real ritual and practice around it. The discipline, I think it's just an interesting, because we don't think about that a lot in creativity. And my creativity doesn't work that way. I'll just say this right now. Like I am a water, the orchid show up every day with work, but I can't discipline creativity. I'm more like when it comes, comes and I'll create like.

Eric (16:35.438)
Well, it's hard to,

Heather (16:51.054)
part the calendar and make space to receive it, but it just doesn't work that way for me. Which is, this was interesting for that reason.

Eric (16:59.274)
I don't, can't, you know, can't re, you can't analyze history to this point that I'm about to say. So who knows how it would have gone differently. But I was already loving music, clearly. I was already writing music, but it wasn't on my mind at all that it was going to be my career at all. Like even up through college, like it was something that was really fun to do while I was going to go get my quote unquote real job doing, you know, whatever it was.

Heather (17:26.99)
I come back to that because I have a question about what you thought that was.

Eric (17:31.225)
Um, um, so I don't know, but in my teens, I had bone cancer that really could have like was potentially taking me out. Like it was like, was, that was still on the table as an option. And how old were you 14? And so they were like, best case scenario, you're going to lose your foot. Um, but you know, it's still potentially might be the end. And that's what we were told. And so I think.

that really galvanized something that I was like, do what you love hardcore, like go hardcore, whatever, whatever it is. So I was still, didn't think this dream that I'm living now was an option. So I was doing the thing that I thought could make me a career while fully loving music. And then once music was like, no, this is a viable career. It's like, well, that's it. There is no option. This is it.

once I realized I could sustain myself, even if I had to sleep in a car.

Heather (18:33.066)
Sustain means something differently over time. You're like, I'm going to do it, everything I can.

Eric (18:38.004)
I do think that had of, it was a factor anyway, like, yeah, having to look at it and go, how are you going to spend whatever time you have?

Heather (18:42.967)
You're a

Heather (18:48.31)
I I forget that is part of your story.

Eric (18:52.718)
So it really, again, without it, who knows? I mean, I loved music so much that in college, if the music took off like it did, I probably would have just enjoyed doing it. And I can't say for sure I wouldn't have done it, it definitely put a little thing in my heart of we're not guaranteed any time.

Heather (19:05.816)
I know.

Heather (19:11.628)
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking is just your approach to life and living is so kind of wide open and present and go with it that it's hard to not imagine. You know, it's, I can't think too hard about it. mean, that's the age my kids are and like how that would change everybody. So people at this point might be wondering why, where is this bad lettuce?

Eric (19:32.108)
Yeah,

Heather (19:41.118)
You and I have known each other from that point you just mentioned in college where maybe you thought, and this is where I'm actually don't know the answer. At the time I was studying biomedical science, you were studying math as I recall, statistics. And I'm sure we just crossed paths doing nerdy studying things and talking about juxtamereal or apparatus and other things like that.

Eric (19:55.564)
Statistics.

Heather (20:10.006)
Did you think you were going to? What did you imagine you were going to do with a statistics degree?

Eric (20:15.596)
wasn't 100 % sure. So actually...

Heather (20:17.964)
How does one even decide they want to study statistics in

Eric (20:21.048)
So here, this is the real deal. I have an older brother and he was like the guiding star. I did not have a great father. My brother was kind of my, the person I looked up to. I was a male figure in my life. And everything he did, I just did. He played music, I played music, he wrote songs, I played everything. was just going. So he went to the University of South Alabama. Go Jags. Go Jags to get a, he got a biology major and then went to med school and became a doctor.

Heather (20:40.984)
Blueprint.

Eric (20:50.74)
And I was like, I'm going to South Alabama to get a biology degree and then become a doctor. Music was happening at the end of high school and starting there where I was playing gigs and getting some popularity and getting on the radio. So like all of us, had to take stats 101 as a prerequisite. So I took that. I was like, this is kind of not fun. I don't enjoy this. This is really boring part of math. And then I was.

Heather (20:55.309)
Okay.

Heather (21:15.746)
Yeah.

Eric (21:19.63)
going about music next semester, take the thing, took that one or two just to get it over with. Well, somewhere in the middle of that, I was like aceing it. I was getting like a hundred on everything. And the professor was like, Hey, he said, Hey, we have a grant program that you should go sign up for at the department. Cause you have a really good understanding of this. I was like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. And I was like, what kind of jobs could you get with this? Oh, you know, biostatistics or you could do actuary stuff or you could do this. I'm like,

I don't know, but he was like, go over there, it'll be good. And I was like, you know, I'm college kid, I'll go over there. And it's all seniors and me as a freshman. was like, they're not giving me this grant. They gave me the grant. And I was like, huh. So I got the grant and then they were like, well, it's like, they basically gave you money to like do data crunching. was not like super great, but they said, well, if you're going to do this for the next semester, we have a stats computing class. You should take that. it'll help you.

Heather (21:58.956)
To do what? Is this like a scholarship?

Heather (22:14.06)
Wrapped up in the

Eric (22:14.946)
They weeded me into the stats program and then somewhere along the process, music really started taking off and it was quicker for me to get out of college with a stats degree than a biology degree.

Heather (22:25.454)
You're like, already taking a bunch. We'll just finish it with this. So it's more opportunistic than.

Eric (22:30.734)
But I did learn to really enjoy stats. The first two stats class are horrible no matter where you're at.

Heather (22:37.058)
Right, chemistry is the same way.

Eric (22:38.936)
But once you see past the curtain, it's like, this is everyday applyable,

Heather (22:44.504)
felt exactly the same way. on the other side of organic, like biochem and all that stuff where it starts to make sense. Okay. So it was never like, I'm going to go be a

Eric (22:53.454)
I was gonna be a doctor and then they weeded me into the stats program and it was the quickest way to get in.

Heather (22:58.903)
You did graduate. Yeah. And you use your stats degree all the time.

Eric (23:03.048)
Not one single day. That's not-

Heather (23:05.07)
I don't, I feel like your brain though is still wired to take, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm even going to pretend because I don't know enough about stats to draw any conclusions.

Eric (23:18.082)
don't know that I've written any songs that have math written.

Heather (23:21.708)
I mean, maybe it's a real missed opportunity because this podcast audience is probably really here for that.

Eric (23:29.968)
Maybe this is the inspiration.

Heather (23:31.894)
Yeah. You just needed a muse and it was statistics and you've been missing it the whole time. So yeah, I've known you for, that would have been the late nineties when you say it that way. Back in the late nineties. Yes. And here we still are chit chatting and pondering. So let me fast forward to how we got here today.

Eric (23:44.59)
and other century.

Heather (23:57.816)
So, let's see, it's been about a year. What month is it? July of last year, we finally launched the podcast. You and I stay in touch. So you knew that this is something I've been talking about for years, probably planted the seed of like, might need some music for this or, but you know, I'm somebody who's got a lot of ideas all the time and I don't always implement them. But finally we got serious about this and Ashley and I were working on

launching it. It's always been on my mind for whatever reason that when you do a podcast, you got to have some intro music. Like that was a big piece of it. So we record our intro and our outro and in whatever platform we use, it comes with all these canned, you know, music situations. So she picked one and I listened to it. I was like, absolutely not. What other options are there? So we found a piece that I got okay enough with. You know how picky I am.

but got okay enough with that we could launch the podcast. I sent it to a couple of people and I think one of them in particular was like, love it. And what about that music in the beginning? I was like, I know. I know we could do better. And even my family. And so I was like, okay, we got to figure it out. We got to make our own music. I wanted my own music. I'm like, turns out I know a guy.

Eric (25:07.064)
That's not what you want.

Heather (25:22.616)
I know a guy. So I'm thinking I need like 12 seconds of instrumental music. So I am like, hey, or actually I think before we even launched the podcast, I was like, the music on the podcast is not awesome. I need some, what do you have laying on the cutting room floor? Is that the right words? That I can just use for this. Like give me some scraps that I can patch on this podcast.

Eric (25:29.422)
Mm-hmm.

Heather (25:52.406)
And you generously looked around and sent me some things and I forget why I was like, not it, not it.

Eric (25:57.038)
didn't have any, like you wanted fully produced versions of things and I just had scraps of ideas in my phone. I don't have fully realized versions of them.

Heather (26:06.574)
or scraps of things that already were something else. Like if it had been produced already, it probably is on a path to become.

Eric (26:13.847)
Well, that's what I meant. could either give you a produced thing that wasn't using a podcast, but it

Heather (26:18.984)
But it was you somewhat, right? Like, this was on my album. And I was like, he's scratching.

Eric (26:21.942)
or a fresher thing that has the quality you wanted for your pie.

Heather (26:27.702)
And I just remember being like, no, it can't be that because you use that somewhere and I want my own thing. So I my own thing. I've just learned a lot. Let me just, we'll just say that 100 times before we get started on this. And that is often true. I'll have an idea and I'll be able to, let's go do it. And then I'm to learn a billion things in the middle about how to get there. So either way, whatever you had available to me, I was, was not going to work. And so was like, we have to make something.

And so you said, okay. And I thought that meant you would go make something.

Eric (27:03.406)
That was gonna take 12 seconds and then...

Heather (27:06.222)
And like just, you know, like kind of here's the vibe, like just give me like a way and do ever what you do all the time for your whole life.

Eric (27:16.022)
I could have done that, but it didn't feel like the thing to do.

Heather (27:19.266)
Well, and we're like, well, F it, let's just do a whole song. Still in that model. So I'm like, fine, we'll do that.

So I still imagine that what that means is we're gonna chat and I'm gonna give you some ideas about what I think it is. And then you go away and write it and then come back. And I tell you if I like it or not, that is not how it went.

Eric (27:44.43)
It is not how went. didn't want it to go that way. you, if this is your podcast, it's your dream. It's your, it's so, it's so integral, integral that, um, yeah, you had to be involved. If I just wrote something, you weren't going to like, you weren't going to love it no matter what. I had to be in the room first of all, cause otherwise it have been 7,000 edits.

Heather (27:54.287)
huh.

Heather (28:00.949)
You're like, I know you well enough.

Heather (28:06.306)
You're like, I don't have time to keep sending you stuff you don't like.

Eric (28:09.474)
But really, I mean, that's joking aside. Yeah, I just felt like you needed to be a part of the thing and you were a great co-writer. like being in a professional co- It was.

Heather (28:21.358)
Well, let's talk about that. we wrote a song. don't know if we've said that specifically yet. We wrote a song called Stand in the Hand. We were so original. I name everything. I like brand consistency. So yeah, again, we wrote a song.

Eric (28:31.371)
As we wrote a

Eric (28:36.608)
We weren't really original with the title.

Heather (28:46.508)
which is interesting for me because Heather has never written a song and didn't really understand how the process worked and is now going to be working with someone who since they were in what elementary, middle school has been writing songs. Process wise for me,

It was very Andy, for sure.

Eric (29:08.716)
In what way?

Heather (29:11.81)
Well, I think so we wrote it in three Zoom sessions as I recall.

I had some urgency around it because I was hoping that we were going to launch the podcast with the Tinky Tink intro that we had, but then quickly replace it with this. So again, I had no sense of how long it was going to take. Again, I thought we were going to show up on one podcast. I was going to give you some ideas. You're going to go do it, turn it back in. We'll be good to go. So I think I was humbled very quickly. Well, first of all, I got educated that no, I was going to be.

part of the process the whole time. And that felt scary, I guess. I remember in the very beginning, I mean, I got emotional and probably really frustrated because it was clear to me that I didn't actually have a lot of clarity about what I wanted the song to be. The and is a big thing. Like, and as much as you were just talking about, like your discipline, I mean, it's, it almost feels like a

scientific, you're like, it can't be this and this, has to be this narrow. And just, didn't, was like, maybe my idea is not fleshed out enough for us to be here. Maybe I need to go away and get clarity. And then I felt frustrated. And I just want to say your level of patience with this whole situation was remarkable. Cause you're like, just, you're like, it's, you kept being like, it's fine. You're fine. I think I've not.

done anything lately. Let me think about that's true. You know, I'm kind of like you. I keep getting better at the thing I already know how to do in most cases to put myself in. I've never done this with somebody who's like, it's all that they do. Aside from like, I'm going to learn blacksmithing, but that's low stakes, right? Like, so I make something terrible, doesn't matter. This mattered a lot. I'm curious what that initial process was like.

Heather (31:09.912)
For you though, to work with somebody who's like, I don't even know. Remember you were like, well, let me color code. I was like, what's supposed to rhyme?

Eric (31:17.346)
Yeah, that's fine. I I write with a lot of people and I mean, these days I typically write mostly with like, you know, super pro people that have been doing it for a long time, but I'll still write with people that I just enjoy as a human that are like, Hey, would you write a song with me? mean, would you write a song with me? I just love the craft of it. And sometimes the best songs come from like,

Heather (31:38.36)
So you're practice working with.

Eric (31:40.748)
I have practices working with a lot of, you know, I don't even want to say, just inexperienced songwriters, them are great inexperienced songwriters. And knowing you as a creative human and a smart human, I wasn't worried about it at all. I knew it might feel tangly to you and be kind of a tough, tough process, but I'm like, this is the process. We're going to get through it. Don't doubt what we're doing. What we have is valuable. It's just going to take a little elbow grease.

Heather (32:08.77)
Well, and I find in my, actually a parallel to what you just said to my work is I trust the process, right? I know in my head kind of where the thing is headed. I know it's gonna get messy before it gets, explain. I'm like, it's gonna feel like we're cleaning out a closet. Like it's about to get messier before it gets clear. I promise we'll get there. You have in your head like what this is all supposed to go and be like, I have nothing. So to trust the process,

And so was really helpful when you're like, cause I'm like, how are we doing? Are we failing? You know, I want to win. Are we failing? Is this terrible? And you're like, it's good. So that I need it. It's just interesting. Like in my life, I don't need constant reassurance on everything, but you're sort of like, it's okay. Cause we had one session and we didn't finish it. And I'm like, were we supposed to finish it today? Like how long does it normally take?

Eric (32:57.862)
I mean, some people would say yes, but like to me, I'm not, I don't have a timer on it. It's just like, did we do something of value that we can pick up the next time? Then it was a success and we needed to come back to it. Sometimes they fall out in 25 minutes, but that's not normally the case for me.

Heather (33:12.94)
Well, and I think perhaps if I had come to the table with more than a title.

Eric (33:18.786)
Well, I will say this, typically, this is not over generalized, but typically an inexperienced songwriter, where they miss is trying to put too much into one.

Heather (33:28.468)
which we had a lot of chat about.

Eric (33:30.604)
But the point of this song is standing the end with this entire pocket that already knew going in like just cause you're going, we are the world. we're trying to, mean, you know, I mean, that type of thing is like, this is going to be tough for six professionals on writers to not let this get out of, out of our hands. And for somebody who's never written a song is like, it's going be extra, extra hard. that's why I was like, don't, we are doing something difficult, but we'll get it just hanging there.

Heather (33:36.888)
We were singing about the messiness.

Heather (33:59.67)
And I think what I had to do was just think out loud and basically just like, here's what the and means to me. And I would get frustrated cause I couldn't say it. And then I would just like Ted talk about it. And you're like, well, why can't we just say that? I'm like, I don't know. What can we say? So that was helpful for me just to be like, I'm going to say what it means to me. And then you helped me figure out how to squeeze it down. Once it had a structure, it was a lot easier. I mean, you really did give me, because I think, and we've talked about this on the podcast before this sort of.

open ambiguity, hugeness, and then structure and how they really can work together to me. Structure can help create, right? Kind of like your discipline is like, once I understand the container, you know, A chorus, B chorus, whatever. Cause even thinking about what needs to rhyme, I just, it's so different. I almost said I was a writer and then I'm like, that's not true. I write things. So the words are not a problem, but

in this, it's not the same as just writing words. A, don't do poetry necessarily, so I used to that, but you... I'd be like, well, I like these words. And you're like, I can't sing that.

Eric (35:10.306)
Well, yeah, there's melody and phrasing. You don't have in just the writing or talking.

Heather (35:12.238)
There's no space.

Heather (35:16.558)
At that point, because I think there are people, I think Rob talked about this on one of the early podcasts because he does some music stuff, but he thinks of the music first and then adds words later. Right. And so we were very much starting with words. So I don't have a sense of how that's going to translate musically to know what you can sing and what you can't sing.

Eric (35:27.286)
It can go either way.

Eric (35:38.648)
When it's something like this, prefer to start with the words because I want to make sure that we've said what you want to say. And I should be able to make it the music. We could Rubik's cube the music until we find one that we're both happy with if that makes any sense. Nothing wrong with starting with the music first, but.

Heather (35:58.69)
It's just a different process, right? So that just was clear to me that that was a piece of it that was, and in that case, it was a matter of view, like, just like, like I had nothing to do with my part of.

Eric (36:12.396)
I like that, I don't like that.

Heather (36:14.144)
Right. Don't do that. Or it's more like more like err.

Eric (36:17.62)
Well, yeah, there were some interesting adjectives used.

Heather (36:20.736)
And sounds. found that I'm like, not, but like, I want it to be like a lot of body. I want it to feel deeper down. I don't want it to feel up here. So that was interesting. Just language barrier in doing this is I don't know how to say what I need to say. I'm to do the best that I can. I think so. Another learning for me in the writing of this was

Eric (36:38.03)
What we got there is conveyed the message intended.

Heather (36:49.078)
I think I'm so caught up in like, what's the truth and does this represent the truth of what I think or believe? And the more even I do a podcast or certainly a song, there's not enough space ever for the whole thing. Right. And so was right. You're like, cause I'm like, that's true. But then also this, and we don't talk about how people are connected to each other. And that's a whole nother part of the, and, you're like, what did you, you're like,

That'll be a 12 minute song.

Eric (37:19.928)
Well, somewhere along the way, I've taught a lot of classes on songwriting and what I realized in doing that one time was, let's just forget music for a second and imagine your songs or whatever message each song has for the audience. And you're showing up in Cleveland and they give you a podium. Well, the message in a song typically is around three, three and a half minutes. If you take the intro music out, the outro music out, and all the in-between parts, that's down to about two and a half minutes.

Then if you take the repeated choruses out that don't really give new information, that's another minute out. You have a minute or a minute and a half to tell a concise story to an audience of people that don't know you. That is not enough time to be going down dirt roads. You have to sound like you know what you're saying and say it immediately and with conviction. So,

Heather (38:13.184)
And I think that's what was hard for me is you said that and in the beginning I did not have that level of focus.

Eric (38:19.264)
So, so a lot of times people go, well, you just write the truth. You just write the truth. That's, that's factual. That's right. That's what you need to do. But love is good is true. But if that's where you're starting with the song, it has to be more concise than that. Or you will watch an audience of people just zone out. But it sounds like you, like, what are you telling? Why are we having a symposium about this? We already all know that it's too, it's once it gets so vague, you have to get.

Heather (38:26.389)
slice of it.

Heather (38:40.162)
Like your trundle.

Eric (38:49.191)
That's really the craft, I think, is finding out how to be nuanced.

Heather (38:53.624)
Well, and to be nuanced about a topic that, like you said, is... Sing me a song about human complexity. It was tri... I think it's just tricky to try to frame.

Eric (39:06.68)
Just to say that, mean, so in this instance, we're starting with stand in the end of the bigger things in your life. That's what I'm saying. I already knew just from the get-go sentiment and

Heather (39:20.686)
Like what the point was.

Eric (39:22.498)
that this was a big, vague thing. Yeah, yeah. So what I mean is it was going to be a rougher journey than normal songwriting. not you were rough. The song was going to be rougher to make. So I was just, I was proud of you for sticking in there because I know it was a tough battle.

Heather (39:25.196)
So you knew what you were signing up for.

Heather (39:32.386)
Yeah. So you're saying it was rough.

Heather (39:45.528)
Also, what's true for me is I am somebody who would say I'm not a group project like wordsmith. I specifically, even in the work that I do now, I'm like, well, we're not going to talk about the work. We're not going to wordsmith this together because I just do better with that privately. Like the way my brain works, I can talk out loud, but if I need to think and make words make sense together, I usually do that by myself. So even just the process of trying to make my brain like group pick some words out.

Because you saw we'd put it in the Google Doc and then go away and I'd like work on it by myself. Another challenging part of it is like I work on it by myself and I think something's pretty awesome and then I get back to it and you've cut it out or it's not going to fit or something else. So this practice of not being attached, right? That it's not precious.

Eric (40:33.346)
Like they say, kill your darlings. That's a...

Heather (40:35.7)
Yeah, and creativity. that again, letting go of stuff that I'm into is not always my jam, but this practice of like, it just doesn't fit here. And maybe

Eric (40:46.36)
That's really important. That's what I try to tell people all the time. it's like that line is amazing. I'm not, they're not downing this line. The line has valid validity. It doesn't go right. Put that in this next song. Cause that will be nuanced to a different idea over there.

Heather (41:04.942)
And maybe that's why this felt heavier for me a little bit. Like, I think this may be the one, maybe not. Maybe not. Whereas you're like, great, I'll put that Lego block back in the bin and we'll assemble it into something else.

Eric (41:07.598)
because there might not be a place.

Eric (41:20.206)
Well, that goes back to the bigger thing, like you were saying, the discipline of getting up every day and writing everything in writing. I'm not stopping, right? There's going be more songs coming. So it makes the process easier because you don't have to hold on to that line as tightly.

Heather (41:24.962)
Like I got a bucket of Lego blocks.

Heather (41:35.246)
And even in this, when it's just like, there's not room for everything and what makes the most sense. So I was continuing to think about if I only get a handful of Legos of Anne's, which ones do we put in here? I mean, at some point we got so stuck. Cause it's not only what are the right ones, but they got to rhyme with something else. So one point we're just turned around looking at the painting and I'm just reading those out and we're Googling what rhymes with this. So some of them aren't how I would articulate it normally.

Eric (42:03.544)
It's also a matter of looking at it as like, is this line more important to me than how it's going to resonate with somebody hearing it? Like you got to constantly remind like if you've played a million songs and from a million people, you start being like, this feels like.

Heather (42:13.356)
audience awareness.

Heather (42:20.814)
I know you love it and no one knows what you're talking about.

Eric (42:23.87)
I don't mean, I'm not trying to big boy you, I'm not trying to do that. I'm just saying like, that's part of the track to be like, this feels smoother and it lands, you know.

Heather (42:33.474)
And that was an interesting tension in the process too, I think, because I think we both really wanted the other one to like it, love it. And it was the goal from the beginning that this was gonna be something that we used or shared or did something with. We'll come back to the fact that we still don't really know what to do with it, but it wasn't just let's do this, because I think it would be fun to do this. was, I wanna figure out.

Eric (42:42.904)
For sure. Yeah.

Heather (43:02.188)
I'm so passionate about this concept. I want to figure out how to say it in a way through a song that might resonate differently. So this audience awareness piece of it is part of the filter of like, if I use kaleidoscope as a metaphor, I use kaleidoscope as an, and I'll just like talk through my metaphors. Here's how I describe it sometimes. And you're like, that makes, I think that makes sense. So, so we'll see. Do you have a favorite part of the song?

Eric (43:29.676)
I mean, kaleidoscope is also broken glass is pretty. It's probably my favorite line. You said it. And I was just like, that's, that's brilliant.

Heather (43:32.556)
Is that your favorite line in it?

Heather (43:37.838)
And I think you think it's brilliant for different. I mean, when we talked about this, I think you maybe even think about the metaphor a little bit differently than I do, but I agree. So I think the very first, the first part, the first three lines, don't know how you organize it, Gratitude and grief at the same time. Again, as somebody like, yeah, I just feel like that whole first, the first three lines kind of sum up a big.

Eric (43:52.812)
or whatever you want to say.

Heather (44:05.838)
piece of what it's like for me just to be in the world. I'm grateful in grieving something, letting go of something all the time, and fear and belief. And again, I wouldn't normally call that fear and belief, but the way it worked out and then kaleidoscope, as you know, not only is awesome for broken glass reasons, but because it's a group of butterflies. I don't know that I knew that when we put it in there, but I love it even more.

Eric (44:31.039)
Right.

Heather (44:36.406)
I also like how you say, you know, the, the grittiness. think I've probably even said this. want, I'm like, I want a little like Stevie Ray Vaughan, like kind of, because I wanted it to feel gritty and kind of messy. Yeah. Right. It's brand. Right. And on mess. So that it's an interesting.

Eric (44:57.09)
Which is right. That's part of the.

Heather (45:05.004)
I of wrestled with that a little bit too when we're figuring out how to finish it.

Eric (45:09.71)
It's also as structured as it sounds that I write. It's also fun to write songs, you know, still an art form and just to be a kid a little bit and throw some paint at the wall. And I remember that chorus going to that thing. was not, I was just playing around and being silly and you were like, yeah, that. And I was like, that? And you were like, yeah, that. And I'm like, for this song? And you were like, yeah. And I was like, okay. And then the more I played it, was like, yeah, that is what this is.

Heather (45:36.43)
It's true, I forgot it was an accident.

Eric (45:38.51)
Yeah. I was just goofing. was like, Oh, this would be silly. We should do it like this. I mean, at the time we were playing more like, Oh, Malif Lewis, like flowy chill kind of stuff. Cause it fits the things and in the end of it all. And then I went to like a bluesy thing and you were like, yeah, that. I was like, Oh no, I was just, that wasn't a really, that wasn't actually a suggestion. You're like, no, I love it.

Heather (45:42.126)
Why did you think it would be silly?

Chill.

Heather (46:04.524)
Well, cause back to my, don't have the words. like the juxtaposition of like, it be flowy and then gritty and bluesy because that's, that's just the texture of it all. Right. so I do remember.

Eric (46:18.69)
love it now. I don't think it could have been any better than it is now, but that's the beauty of collaboration. Because some like that type of thing I would have missed on doing because I would not have done that.

Heather (46:29.71)
And again, with the patients, you're just like riffing, like just keep playing stuff. it's like, I press scan on the radio and I just let it all roll through until I hear what I want. And then I stopped it. No, let it roll. Let it roll. Yes. But yeah, I love that part. And then it was interesting to kind of get to the working it out. And like, are we done? Do you like?

Eric (46:42.04)
this. How about

Eric (46:57.484)
Yeah, we worked so hard on it we got to the end. I think this is it.

Heather (47:01.43)
I was like, can't, I don't think you like it. I'm like, I think I like it.

Eric (47:06.03)
It was super important to me because I'm used to also people that are used to killing their darlings, you know, so it's like nobody's precious and we're just gone. like this is very important. And it was really important to me. know, one, like I said, because it's you, want to make sure, you know, if your podcast was about whatever, but I also think this is a really important and beautiful idea that you're doing. you know, I don't want to write some garbage song.

Heather (47:16.322)
But to you

Heather (47:33.578)
I know, but I had to let it even settle into myself. was like, because I'm recovering perfectionist. So I'm like, I don't, I think I love it. Like, can I say that? Does that mean we're done? You know, because like what finished is, what done is, as somebody who wants to like massage it forever, I didn't know what else to do to it. So was like, I don't know what to change. That's how I decided it was done. I I don't know what else I would do. So we're going to call it done.

Eric (48:01.794)
Thank you.

Heather (48:03.084)
And then I love it. And then, so at that point, by the time all this had gone down, we had several podcasts out already. And I'm like, well, we wrote a song, but do we still have the 12 seconds of produced instrumental that I need? So I was like, what do we do with it now?

Wait, what did we try? no.

Eric (48:33.198)
So, well, I mean, there's the basically the, at that point, it's like we could go in the studio and record, but you were already far down the rabbit.

Heather (48:42.22)
Don't even say that. I was ready to go in the studio. I was like, well, I mean.

Eric (48:45.902)
Yeah, also I'm going have gigs to, you I was busy, unfortunately, I couldn't drive it on record like that week. So, you know, wasn't blaming you.

Heather (48:48.846)
You were busy

Heather (48:55.892)
I that's okay. But I did, again, I honored that I had some urgency. was like, let's figure this out, except my urgency led to us not really figuring it out, but down a whole pondery trail about AI. It was like, well, we don't have time to get in the studio and do all that. Just, I mean, for a lot of reasons. So we're like, all right, well, what if AI was around the music of it? Right.

Or you sent me, so I guess we wrote it. I said, yes, that thing that you thought was a joke, I want the song to sound like that. And then you did just like, this, like I thought it would be the whole time. You went away and put the words and the music together and you sent me a clip that just says rough idea, which may be the one that people are gonna hear today. But after that, we like tried to run it through AI. You ran the whole thing through AI.

Eric (49:50.476)
Well, we're in a strange wild west with AI. To me, it was nothing but a party trick when it was just like make up some things that sound right. It didn't sound, have any of the guts that we love in human creation. Then it evolved and evolved and evolved. And then it got where it can perfectly.

cover your song. So it's your melody as a writer, your words, your phrasing, your everything just make it sound fully produced. And I think that's great to hear the song. I personally still don't ever want to try to pass that off to the public as humans made this. I feel like that's being a little sneaky. It's know, shady. Now, does everybody feel that way? Absolutely not. And we don't know at what...

speed or level or who's willing to I mean there's plenty of Spotify bands

Heather (50:44.056)
put like the music behind it, right? If you're like, we're gonna have you sing it, but then we're gonna run some drums and some whatever else.

Eric (50:51.222)
Right. Which if you were going to do, if I was just going to produce a more EDM hip hoppy version with me singing over it, all I would be doing would be taking samples from other. It's a little bit of a gray area, but I wouldn't want it to be sounding like a studio band and be AI.

Heather (51:12.206)
Well, but we played with that we listened to some versions like you sent me some versions that were it was like female but There are in a file somewhere the female country singer version Of the song

Eric (51:26.831)
I think it's useful and fun for me as a writer. Yeah, like listen to all these styles and then, you know, if you want to hear a real version of it, let's go in the studio with real people and do it.

Heather (51:28.926)
It's to be like, what style?

Heather (51:37.612)
And I just, we did that, we tried that, and I was like, I like the rough idea the best of them all. So, that's still back to the, get back to the plot of this whole story. That does not leave us still with podcasts, intro, outro music. So, we kind of sat on it for a while of like, I don't know what else to do. I'm like,

Let's just record a podcast and you can sing and at least it will be out there. Meanwhile, it's just, I listen, the audience of one listens to the rough idea version. When I feel like I just can't, you know, like whatever the thing is, like enough of this and business, like this is too much. So it's like my pump up song. Like an anthem.

Eric (52:30.434)
Now I'm basically a good-

Heather (52:33.622)
of like, I hear that you say that, but when I listen to it, I'm like, well, once upon a time I thought I could, or I thought I did. So maybe I still can.

Eric (52:44.334)
That's really cool. And I'm glad that you have that as ownership, not just like somebody wrote a song I like, it's like, because you can go like a

Heather (52:52.064)
in your journal to be like, well, this day you said I can stand in the end. And then recently though, right before we did this, I was like, what if we're wrong? Like, what if we can't stand in the end? And what did you say? Do you remember? Something about how, you know, cause kind of like,

The song doesn't have to feel true all the time.

Eric (53:19.478)
yeah, yeah, yeah,

Heather (53:21.014)
Right? And not even for me, like sometimes, cause I was like, if it doesn't resonate with people, cause they're like, this doesn't feel right to me. But you were saying it's not even gonna feel true to you all the time. Like songs are a moment.

Eric (53:32.984)
Songs are a moment. So that's back to the thing where I was saying about standing at a podium in Cleveland so it needs to be nuanced and specific. The same artist could sing a very genuinely honest song that says out of sight, out of mind, and the next song could be Absence Makes the Heart Grow Fonder. Those aren't lies. It's just we've both had those feelings at different seconds in life and the song is only dealing with that emotion at that second.

So like time changes how you feel about things. It's not, it seems like a drastic contradiction and it is, but like life moments are contradictory when you put them all together.

Heather (54:12.846)
Well, and I guess not everybody writing a song is trying to write a song that feels true to them, right? There's writing a song that sounds good and doing storytelling or something else. It's not necessarily, this is my life experience. I guess usually that's true, but it it felt so, it's such a value to me to make sure that I'm, and I think I said this already, that I'm like telling the truth about my experience, but that any song, any podcast, even writing a book, I tried to write a book and then got distracted.

But even it's not the whole story. So just to honor that you're only ever telling a piece and that that piece true on that day may not feel true every second of every other day. But I love it. I'm excited to see if anybody else cares about it. But, and also recognize that even if they like it, this is a very bizarre way to try to share it.

Eric (55:00.11)
me too.

Eric (55:06.254)
This is back to what you said earlier. So we wrote the song. You, you, love it. love it. So that's one. And then stand in the end of you're also going to share it and see if it resonates with somebody else. And it's fine. That's two separate entities. It's the song for you and it's the song for them.

Heather (55:24.462)
Well, it's going to be on this. I guess what I'm saying is certainly not typically how you would share a song is like shove it in the middle of podcast content. There are ways. I don't have to explain to you probably. There are? Do you want me to tell you how people share?

Eric (55:40.206)
Just tell me how to market music. need all the help.

Heather (55:42.414)
I don't know about marketing, but I just know that we could have put it out in a way of somebody's like, I want to listen to that song on the way to my scary meeting. They don't have to scroll an hour and 15 minutes through our conversation to get to it. Maybe we'll still do it. I still would love to do it in studio with live musicians. Y'all rock the boat. You heard it here. I feel like you're so busy. We have another year. It took us a year to get here.

Eric (56:01.889)
Let's do it.

Let's make it happen.

Heather (56:13.614)
If AI doesn't replace all of sound by then. And it is interesting because I think part of this is like, well, not what's the whole time is like not what's the right way to do it, but what would be fun. Yeah. Like that's kind of the metric on this so far. like, well, it would be fun to write a song, our own song for this. what if let's just put in the podcast. It'd be fun to do a podcast when you're passing by. So if you're listening and you're a musician, you want to sing this song with us.

Eric (56:16.387)
Yeah.

Heather (56:43.774)
Let's go. Let's go. I don't mean to like acquire. I don't even know who we need. Who do we have to put with us? All musicians. Well, I mean, maybe there's not a harp line on here. What is there? Am I looking for? I feel like drums are pretty standard.

Eric (56:45.399)
The choir?

Eric (56:52.482)
the invitation to all musicians.

Eric (57:00.76)
Baby.

Eric (57:06.491)
I think you're gonna need the core group of a, you know, drums, bass, guitar.

Heather (57:09.528)
What's the core?

Heather (57:13.366)
You would play the guitar, guess.

Eric (57:15.855)
I can't unless you get whoever. Yeah, that's not hard. You on this block.

Heather (57:18.222)
I'm find somebody better.

I don't think so. On this block, please. Okay, so if you want to be in our band, let me know. We'll reach out.

Eric (57:36.462)
Stand in the band.

Heather (57:38.914)
I like it. Come stand in the band. Meanwhile, y'all feel free to let me know if you loved our songwriting project. I don't know if I want to hear back from this one. I'm like, thank you. You've received it. We are out. The mailbox is closed.

Eric (57:55.81)
I love it. You're foray into songwriting. You're not getting any critique. It's like, here's the song. You're welcome for me presenting it to you.

Heather (58:04.49)
It's really not about y'all. I really just needed to prove to myself that we could do it. And actually, at the moment we record this, we haven't shared it with anyone.

Eric (58:13.966)
I hate to tell you, but there is an and to writing a song and it is the response. It is the singing of the song and the and the reply.

Heather (58:24.942)
I know, but I'm like, what mechanism? I guess y'all would tell me about it on social media comments, but I don't read those. Y'all tell Ashley what you thought about it. That way she can filter it and share it with me or not, because I love it. And it really wasn't.

As I think about too, and in the broader context of this, about July of last year when this podcast launched, I just had this huge surge of creative energy. Like we launched the podcast, I wanted to write the song, I started writing. It was just part of a big wave for me and it's just fun to see it. Like this at least helps it land somewhere instead of going into the archives of projects that I started and never finished.

This one at least made it out of the inbox.

Eric (59:17.486)
Well, I'm glad. I'm glad to be part of the one that got out of the inbox.

Heather (59:21.27)
That is success for this day. I guess we'll just see. I mean, yeah, y'all hold us to that. We're going to record it somewhere. Let me know if you want to be in the band. What else was I supposed to talk about today? I have notes that I didn't look at.

Heather (59:46.636)
This is not an announcement.

We're done here. We do have part two of this conversation around quantum physics and that's not the right word. Quantum computing, I'm sorry. But we should save that for next time. I don't know if everybody's ready to digest that right now on top of this excellent content.

All right, y'all do let me know. Thank you for passing by today.

Eric (01:00:15.374)
You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

Heather (01:00:17.678)
Cheers to the courage to make things. Here is Stand in the Ant.

Eric
Gratitude and Grief
At the same time
Fear and belief
In the same mind
A Kaleidoscope is also broken glass

Patience and Reach
All in one heart
Passion and Peace
Feeling both parts
There’s often (always) friction in the dance

It’s not always yes or no
In the ebb and flow.
I can let it all be true. 
Once I understand

I’m big enough to hold
It all in my soul.
I’m gonna show up and choose
To Stand in the And

Love them and go
spinning in me
Question and know
All that I see
Night sky holds the darkness and the light

So when my hands shake
I’ll remember
It takes being brave 
To surrender
To the fact that I don’t have to fight

CHORUS

Speak and Listen
Soak it all in 
Stand in the And

Every bit
Grace and Grit 
Stand in the And

As messy as it gets
I’m up for this
Stand in the And

CHORUS

Heather
The Stand on the And podcast is supported by Human-Centered Strategy, where we help leaders and teams build connection and strategy and complexity so that everyone can flourish. To learn more or to work with us, please visit us online at humancenteredstrategy.com or message me on LinkedIn.