Unlocking Human Potential: The Dance Between Control & Surrender

On this episode, Heather Gates and Meghan O'Malley explore the nuanced dance between control, surrender, and agency. This conversation delves into how embracing paradoxes, regulating our nervous systems, and fostering connection can unlock human potential and foster authentic leadership.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions shared in this episode belong solely to the host and the guest and do not necessarily reflect those of their employer or affiliated organizations.

Host: Heather Gates, MPH, Owner & Strategy Partner, Human-Centered Strategy, LLC
Guest: Meghan O'Malley, MS, Author, Speaker, Coach & Consultant 

Resources
•Meghan O’Malley Coaching
•“Unstuck Yourself: Thrive Beyond Burnout & Discover Your True Purpose” by Meghan O'Malley MS, Laura Cardwell
•“Unshakeable: The Power of Connection When Everything Is Crumbling” by Meghan O’Malley, TedXAsheville
•The Imaginal Change Podcast
•Dr. Lisa Miller - researcher, professor and published author at Columbia University who studies the brain as it relates to spiritual connection 

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Transcript

Technical Note: Show notes are created with the help of Riverside.FM AI and thoughtfully reviewed by us. They’re meant to capture the spirit of the conversation, though they may not reflect every word exactly.

Heather 
Hello this is Heather Gates and I welcome you to the stand in the and podcast where we have honest conversation about the messy complexity of the human experience, where we get stuck, and how we find forward in the and of it all where many things are true at once. 

This podcast is designed especially for those of us who want to make things more beautiful and better for everyone and sometimes need reminding that we are human too. I’m so glad you’re here. 

Heather Gates
Welcome back to the podcast, y'all. I am joined today by my dance buddy and fellow imaginer, Meghan O'Malley. Meghan, thanks so much for standing in the end with me today.

Meghan O'Malley 
I live in the and, and I'm so happy to be here and have this conversation. It's gonna be so fun.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, mean, you said our topic is one of your favorites, so I can't wait to see where we go with it. But I do want to give you the opportunity, which now after being on your podcast and doing the same, I realize it's not an easy ask as I thought it was. But I want you to introduce yourself to us in a way that feels meaningful to you.

Meghan O'Malley 
Hmm. So I'm Meghan O'Malley and I am a, professionally speaking, a former therapist who kind of outgrew my relationship with that paradigm and became a coach and am currently wrestling with that label because basically I'm here to help people remember who they are and create relationships, communities, and ecosystems based in that rather than self-abandonment and conformity and this sense that we're supposed to be someone other than who we are. And I say that and that sounds really cute and flowery, but it's really hard. It's really scary. And the nervous system response to that in our current world is a mountain to climb. So I live, I play, and I work in that space of alchemy and becoming.

Heather Gates 
Becoming, just to connect two words that you said that feel so important to me, it's becoming and it's remembering. Right, when you say you help people remember, it's been such an interesting part of my own personal journey to realize at some point, like, a lot of this is about unlearning and remembering. So it just, resonates, your intention resonates with me about what the work is. I have to say.

Meghan O'Malley 
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Heather Gates 
I was talking to my son in the kitchen this morning about what I was going to be up to today. Said we had a podcast with my friend Meghan O'Malley. He's like, I've heard that name before. And I was like, really? I mean, he's, said, really? Are you sure? I mean, maybe. But then we just decided that Meghan O'Malley sounds like a famous person's name, right? He's like, I feel like I want to say I saw her in that movie. And I'm like, right? Maybe she should be a famous actress.

Meghan O'Malley 
I welcome any of the, my Leo-ness is like great. I'll be famous. I'll talk about what's on my heart. Let's go.

Heather Gates 
Just so you know.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, so the famous, the famous Meghan O'Malley is here. And I will share with y'all how Megan O'Malley came famous to me, or how we met. I think it's like not how our paths cross, but how they cross twice. So in the work that you do, a shared acquaintance of ours just asked me like, have you ever heard of Meghan O'Malley's work? And I was like,

Meghan O'Malley 
famous Meghan O'Malley.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, the famous, I said, wait, the famous Meghan O'Malley, I think I've heard of her. But I had not, or I wasn't sure if I had, so I looked you up on the internet and I was reading about it, and then you zoom in on the little tiny circle on LinkedIn or wherever, and I was like, wait a second, that's Meghan O'Malley? Who indeed I knew because I have been dancing next to you at the YMCA on Saturday mornings for approximately two years.

And as one does, I guess we just show up and are like, how are you today? But you don't talk about your work stuff in that setting. So our re-meeting was me saying, hey, somebody thinks we should talk more about what we're up to in the world. That quickly led us to find shared fire about a lot of things. And I think part of what excites me about our conversations is how differently we actually are coming at them to get to the same place. And so just the, you know, the exercise of thinking with you is exciting for me. But I just think that that story is is really fun. And one of the things that stands out even from that first real conversation that we had outside of the gym, and I hope I don't get this wrong, but is your fire around the holy both and? Is that what you call it? Is that the language? Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
yeah, I've said that for years. I call it the holy both and because my, mean, at some point on my journey of personal and professional growth, I realized so much human angst is the result of not embracing the paradox that we are. It's that it's.

Heather Gates 
period. just want to like, can we just tag that the whole point of the podcast? So yes, tell me more.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah, I think we are taught and parts of our neurology like to do this to box ourselves into either or. And if we're in a trauma response, a fear response, that's literally what our brain wants to do. It wants to either or black and white thinking. so there's this, that creates inner turmoil because we are vast. We are creatures that are.

We contain multitudes. We are all of these things. Even the things that we swear we're not. We're kind of that in some way. And so when we start to go, yeah, I'm a coach, a former therapist, a spiritual, blah, blah, blah, and I throw down in hip hop class and my playlist would hurt a lot of ears. Like I'm all of that. And that gives me a sense of freedom.

Heather Gates 
Right.

Meghan O'Malley 
internally that I believe lets me relate to others in a way that's far more loving and accepting. I just, I don't need people to be in their own boxes for me if I'm not boxing myself.

Heather Gates 
Well, in.

Heather Gates 
Well, in loving accepting internal first, right? And I've talked on the podcast before, I think on the parts episode about just the making peace with myself of we are all of these things. just really how you articulated that even like the resistance of the and creates inner turmoil. So we're talking on here a lot about the tensions, right? That we find in the and.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Yeah.

Heather Gates 
and those tensions within the and is part of maybe, and I don't know that I've ever named it this way, Meghan, but the resistance of the reality is where we find ourselves and then we can kind of settle in and honor that many things are true. It feels a little more easeful. So yeah, as you can imagine, when I start talking about the and and you already have been thinking about the quote, holy both and for a long time that this is just a place.

Meghan O'Malley 
yeah.

Heather Gates 
And I guess similarly for me, it was in my own journey where I just realized how seeing the whole picture felt more, not even just more authentic, but more gentle and honest to hold myself instead of fighting with kind of what side naturally am I supposed to fall on. So I don't have to talk to you about what the and means. You're coming at this as a scholar of the and.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Heather Gates 
I think a practitioner of the and. I love that. We should make a whole thing. A devotee.

Meghan O'Malley 
practitioner of the and? A devotee? I'm devoted to the ant? As we talk, I keep having this image, and I think it speaks to those who are listening, perhaps. There's this idea, and I don't actually know where you buy these things anymore, but I know they exist, and people used to use them a lot. Shoe horns? So it's kind of like if you had a pair of shoes that are too small, you know, they feel a kind of way. It's confining, it rubs, it creates blisters.

Heather Gates 
Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
That's that smaller identity, I think. And then there's the shoehorn, it creates a stretch or you have to wear them in with your bigger foot to stretch them out. And that's that nervous system recalibration to integrate newer understandings of self or life. But then after what you just named is like, it does feel softer. It does feel more comfortable. It does feel...

Heather Gates 
Hmm.

Meghan O'Malley
more full of ease and capacity, but we don't get that without the stretching. And I think that's where my work lives right now, is in the space in between. And it's not a sexy space. It's not fun, people try and avoid it. There's all kinds of businesses, marketing, ways to bypass it, and maybe sometimes it works, but a lot of times it doesn't.

Heather Gates 
Mmm.

Heather Gates 
Mm-hmm.

Meghan O'Malley 
and it leaves people feeling like failures. But if we normalize the messy muck and just the natural part of the stretch, I think it takes a lot of the sting out.

Heather Gates 
We are gonna get into our topic, but this is a fascinating conversation to me, so I just wanna linger here for another minute. So when I hear you say that, of kind of, are the shoe, and then we're gonna work on stretching it out, and that's uncomfortable. I'm holding that from a nervous system stretch, right, I think as you're describing it. Like we have to stretch into that bigger, space and if that bigger space is the and and the all of it right if that's what you're is that we're saying it's like we have to stretch into our ability to hold all of that or what is the stretch there for you.

Meghan O'Malley 
So for me, I'm the foot and my relationship to life or life, my identity, my nervous system, my life context is the shoe. So all of that has to be recalibrated and stretched for the foot that is me to not be in chronic pain.

Heather Gates 
And what's interesting for me, so back, I think maybe even episode one when I introduced the and, I think I was, it feels important to me to say that I don't feel like I'm trying to sell the and, or I'm trying to help people figure out how to make the and true. I'm trying to help us see it's already true. And then perhaps culture makes it tight, but it's almost like the shoehorn is just.

Meghan O'Malley
It's always happening.

Heather Gates 
is part of the remembering or something. I don't know if I'm messing up the metaphor, but it's not a matter of like, we gotta kind of push reality to fit the and. It's like reality to me already so much is in the and. It's all the other things, likely culture, that squeezes us into a place that's too small. And so it's removing kind of that, you know, the clutter in the cobwebs of the shoulds.

Meghan O'Malley 
That's it. That's it. No, that's it.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Heather Gates 
that let it take up the space that is more about a remembering. It's becoming through remembering. So yeah, that's fascinating and I'll keep thinking about that. know I love. Another thing you and I love is a good metaphor. So we can tell this whole thing in pictures.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah. Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley
Well, and totally. Well, and I think we originally talked about speaking on the concept of surrender and control and things like that. And I think a lot of what has expanded my metaphorical shoe hasn't been me saying, I want a bigger shoe. It's been life creating a big enough blister for me to have to look at the shoe. I have been surrendered by life context and situations. And it's then for me to respond to that and respond with curiosity. And even if possible, and it's a tough ask a lot of times to find gratitude for the being surrendered by life that loves me more than I know to love myself in my mind.

That wants something, wants a bigger shoe for me than I've ever been shown, ever been, you know, a bigger shoe than anyone in my family has ever had, you know, those kinds of concepts. And that's what's helped me. And I'm a very, you know, spiritually oriented person. That's something that has really served me, not religious, but spiritual. And seeing that there's a loving force or believing that there's something with greater intelligence than my humanity that wants something more for me in those moments of struggle has been helpful.

Heather Gates 
Mm.

Heather Gates 
I can't wait to dig into this, because I know that I can. Right, I'm like, y'all know I am not sorted out in this department. I do want to honor us as humans and a body and a world before we get into the kind of headiness of this more, and just see if there's anything that you want to honor about the and that you're showing up in today, not necessarily the topic that we're going to share. I know you have a lot of exciting things going on. I don't know if now is the time to mention them.

Meghan O'Malley 
How many hours do we have?

Meghan O'Malley 
It's part of my and, so sure.

Heather Gates 
What and are you standing in as you show up today and then I'll do the same. Yeah. Cheers.

Meghan O'Malley 
I'm standing in a lot. I'm always standing in a lot. But what is very real and feels vulnerable to share as an entrepreneur, which that's where I like to lead from is I am here as a heart centered entrepreneur who is very purpose driven, who has a book that came out last year, a TEDx that I did in March that is coming out soon online. So I have this like checkbox fanciness that is real. And I'm famous, I'm the famous Meghan O'Malley who has a book and a TEDx. And I'm showing up as a human who for the past several days, I have been in a state of what am I even doing? Is it even working? Is it even going to be?

Heather Gates 
Famous. PS. Yeah, obviously. Right.

Meghan O'Malley 
received by the world because I went through a full rebrand as I was writing my TEDx because you know, I like to do things the really easy way. And so I'm sitting in this sense of like, I have this very real sense of look at the opportunities life is giving me to serve and to do what's mine to do. Look at how generous and is my humanity doing it right? Is my humanity doing it fully enough? Am I resting enough? Am I honoring? I mean, it's just all that kind of human questioning is showing up with this sense of awe and gratitude and trust in what's unfolding.

Heather Gates 
Yeah.

Heather Gates 
I just feel like every entrepreneur out there listening. I just got chills when you said that because I'm like, gosh, it just feels so true. Like the clarity and I'm taking up space and the second guessing that washes over and it's not steady state to me like any of these ands. It's moments and waves and ebbs and flows. So yeah, you're sitting in the big and the I'm still a human with thoughts. And I think it's I just I appreciate the

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah!

Heather Gates 
vulnerability about telling the truth about that. think it's a real service for people who are, you you work with people who are trying to imagine and become and remember and take up as much space as they will. And same for me is I want people to know that even though what it looks like is everybody like looks great on video and nailed their content that we all have waves of this very human mental chatter running. Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
And it's part of the becoming. That's the reframe is it's essential. The last podcast episode I did on my podcast was about the real path to becoming a speaker on a TEDx stage. talking with other speakers, I wasn't the only one that felt psychically and egoically pummeled by the process. And we had great support. had, you know, it wasn't

Heather Gates 
Hmm.

Meghan O'Malley 
anyone's fault. It was the process of becoming the one who can hold that space and clarify that message and do it with grace and presence and all that. It required pressure, like pressure forms the diamond, grip forms the pearl, right? Like nature knows, nature doesn't take it personally, we do. And so I have...

Heather Gates 
Mm.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, it's fair. Yeah, I'm like,

Meghan O'Malley 
With my therapy background, know, shame is the thing that paralyzes people the most. shame and a sense of aloneness. And so the more I can use my life to de-shame what is often universal experience that is hidden in the closets of our human experience, I'm gonna do it. And if that makes me look messy, if that makes me look whatever, then you're not my people. If that makes you feel safe.

Heather Gates 
same.

Heather Gates 
All right, look away. All right.

Meghan O'Malley 
If that makes you feel safe and like, she gets me, she can guide me, she can help me, then I'm the one and I'm gonna ride for you, you know?

Heather Gates 
Yeah, no, I love it. I feel the same. mean, you know, human centered strategy is our business and the human part just matters so much. I'm like, pretending is exhausting and isolating and creates aloneness. So I'm just trying to be, you know, I think I did a podcast on yours where I really talked about, I think authenticity is as a value and just trying to show it up, show up and figure it out.

I want to get into our, so quick and stand for me. Yeah, I think that I'm standing in a lot right now in a really different way. But what resonates with me is I feel both fired up and grounded. And that's important for me, just a name in my own journey, because for a long time being really fired up about things.

Whether in an intense excitement or anger way, like fired up can be a lot. Fired up to me could be like hair on fire, running around, catching other people on fire. So to have fired up and grounded feels, yeah, much smoother. It was, again, I can only think in pictures. Years ago, I think in therapy or coaching was like, I wanna be more like lava.

Like it's still hot, but it's smoother and flowy. So I'm feeling, I'm leaning into my lava energy right now, I think. Where things feel hot, I feel really passionate about some things right now. And  maybe what this kind of gets to surrender, I don't know, will kind of just go with the flow smoothness.

When I think of lava, I think of the flowy kind that's kind of touches the earth. So I feel connected to the ground and fired up. So I'll try to stay, I get really excited and passionate, so I'll try to continue to sit in that. So let's go though, because I don't want us to run out of time pondering other things. Our topic today is indeed the and.

Heather Gates 
of control and surrender. So again, I had my morning. Well, let me tell you my I'm like, what is this realm that we're living in that this felt like a good idea to me. So I told my son again this morning, I was going to talk to the famous, we decided famous Meghan O'Malley. And I said, and we're going to talk about control and surrender because I have surrender fully figured out. And I feel like we should tell everybody about it.

Meghan O'Malley 
Your face! Your face!

Heather Gates 
And I wish I had a video of my son's face as he grins, smirks and side eyes me and then has some little snarky conversation with the cat about their observations of me. So I will enter this acknowledging that surrender is my growth. Right, I tend to think like in these ands, I usually feel like my natural tendency leans one direction or the other sometimes.

and my natural tendency leans control on this one. But tell me more, when you think about, love this conversation, what is the holy both-and of control and surrender? What do those words mean? Let's just unpack it and see where it goes.

Meghan O'Malley 
I feel like I need to name a little bit of the origin of what got me here. So I, because I don't want to give any illusions that I am showing up as a master of surrender. What I want to name is that I grew up at very conditioned, parentified child, good student. I learned control.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, sure.

Heather Gates 
Well darn.

Meghan O'Malley 
very early as my security blanket. And I kept it close. So I was very good at controlling how I was perceived. I was very good at controlling my achieving. was very good at, because I'm an empath and an intuitive at feeling other people and then adapting accordingly. I was very good at that. And I had anxiety, undiagnosed because I was so high functioning.

Heather Gates 
Mm-hmm.

Meghan O'Malley 
But I had skin issues, I had migraines. Now, through my somatic training and my own journey, I realized all of that was my body trying to tell me, girl, this is not sustainable. You cannot live like this. But it was the only way I knew and the only way I knew to survive during a time when it actually did help me. So I wanna name. Control served me in the way that I needed in a certain life context when I didn't have power and...sovereignty and true agency as a kid. 

In my adult life, I have been guided by life. I mean, first of all, deciding to be an entrepreneur is signing up for a spiritual journey and a journey in the dance between control, agency and surrender. Like it's gonna be a thing because our energy and our presence and our, what we do is always a call and response to the world. We're always doing what we can, but then seeing how it lands.

Heather Gates 
Thanks.

Meghan O'Malley 
I've had that, I've had two divorces, I'm a parent. Like I've had all of these opportunities to feel where my intention ends and where life meets it. And so it's, it's, I use human design in my work and it's all over my chart to learn heart centered endings, letting go, all that kind of fun stuff. So I have been...

in that dance, in that exploration, in that journey, adventure, whatever you want to call it, for decades now. And that brings me to now, which is, I think we're all as humans on this continuum of control, which in my mind, control always has roots in fear. Control is wanting to get ahead of something, wanting to... to control a future because I don't feel supported, I feel alone, or I don't feel like life is inherently benevolent. So those fear-based roots are trying to grab something so that I know I'm okay. Agency is in the middle of that continuum for me. Agency is participation. I'm taking my humanity and I am bringing it fully to this moment, to this situation. I'm doing what is mine to do, but I'm not gripping for or forcing, I'm just here fully. 

And then surrender has two sides. One is the, and it's debatable whether we can actually surrender or if we're always surrendered and then just finally give up and let go. But when I choose to open my palms and be curious and wonder and focus on being receptive rather than even even fully participating sometimes because sometimes I just don't know. I don't know what the thing is to do yet, yet. And then the other is when life goes, look at her, she's gripping, she's doing the thing, she's trying to force something and it's not in her highest good. So life will be really cute. And at best, slap my hand or give me a little whisper. At worst, brings out the sledgehammer and destroys something big. And then,

Meghan O'Malley 
But here's the thing, the times I've been most surrendered, it has sucked. It has been awful. And hindsight is a gift. It has been the most effective, efficient, loving gift to me. Like even my relationship with my dad, which I was estranged from my dad for a long time. He was an emotionally abusive guy. It wasn't good. The becoming that that force.

Heather Gates 
Mm.

Meghan O'Malley 
The generational healing that that forced, that I can now see at almost 47 years old was such a gift. I would never wish it on anyone, but that forced surrender of letting go of what I wanted, what I thought I wanted, what I dreamed of, what I kept trying to force and make happen, it forged something in me. And I can say that about all of these big.

Heather Gates 
Mm.

Meghan O'Malley 
you know, losses, griefs, whatever. And I'm not trying to sugarcoat. I wanna be really clear. Like my humanity kicks and screams about these things still sometimes. But overall, I see it as something I wasn't willing to let go of, cause I'm stubborn as hell. And life made it abundantly clear that it was time, that I couldn't evolve. I couldn't be me with that in my life or in my relational field.

Heather Gates 
Yeah.

So things that come up for me when I hear that story, one is I think listening to your early kind of sharing around control. So just acknowledge that piece. I think a lot of what you've described, I probably have called in my own storytelling perfectionism, which just feels like, you know, the act of holding the sword of control maybe, right? Like maybe that's.

Meghan O'Malley 
And being perceived by others. That's how I define perfectionism and like I need to be seen.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, that's that external piece of it. I also want to add that for me, a learning, again, in some of these things, I'm about to turn 48, so we're about the same lifetime line there, is control. I just appreciate you honoring the role that control serves us when we need it. 

I think somebody who, and now understands my hypersensitivities and my, right, of over-excitability, all of those things that are me, and if helping feels, I'll use the word safe, but I think it's more just trying to be regulated in an environment, right? A lot of these things that may come across as I'm trying to be controlling of how loud the TV is or how loud, and I'm just learning like,

I'm just trying not to be overstimulated all the time. And so it's been an interesting, like these words, they're so complicated or complex individually. And maybe that pulls me more. I actually, I would not, I drew a line chart, I think you just drew it control agency surrender. You put agency in the middle. That's interesting to me. Cause you and I had a little brain tangle when we talked last time about the difference between agency and control. 

So that's just an interesting frame that I wanna name there because I think agency is so important when we have it. And I don't know actually if that, like how my mental model would create some other thing around it that's environmental, that's like when it's safe enough, when we can, all these places. And then surrender as a thing that sometimes you do and sometimes you experience. Right? So like you're the driver and sometimes, so I think of...

Meghan O'Malley 
Yep.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, it just, feels more like a decision sometimes than others. Like, I think I'm finally, and to your point, it's like, maybe I'm finally just gonna put down the illusion that I can control this even if I wanted to versus something more extreme is happening in life that creates that. One last thing I'll say about this is as I was,

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Heather Gates 
pondering this conversation too is I think I've mentioned to you before as I'm kind of sometimes get lost in myself and I'm reminded like zoom way back out to say okay what am I what matters like I am the power of nature plus emotion choice and voice that

Power of nature part probably is more the surrender like I'm like a tree and I bloom and the leaves fall off and it's more this bigger kind of natural ebb and flow of it. And then the choice in the voice part probably puts me back to navigating some space between control and agency to say it's really discernment around a decision sometimes right like how am I going to.

Because I get tangled up a lot, let me say it more simply, in where do I have agency or where do I not? Like I might think I have more, right, than I do. So what choices do I wanna make? Where do I wanna have voice? Is that gonna have influence? I think about this a lot and I think my audience who, know, there's the, this and applies to us just kind of personally as we're interacting with our life experience.

Meghan O'Malley 
Totally.

Heather Gates 
and often in engaging in a big issue that we want to help improve. So that might mean, what do we wanna do about adolescent mental health? What do we wanna do about the state of affairs of an industry? And this notion of like, surrender, think sometimes where I get itchy about surrender and why I think people are like, that's not your jam, is it can feel sometimes like just hands off the wheel, whatever.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Heather Gates 
Right, and so there's that like, it'll be what it'll be and it'll work out. Because sometimes I feel like we do that too much and we forget that we do have agency in the middle. That even if we can't do a thing, we can influence other things that help change that. So this just gets real tangly to me, Meghan, when I think about all the parts at play.

Meghan O'Malley 
And I love it because I love conversations that are tangly, right? You know, and so what I want to name in this, just wrote down while I was, while we're having this conversation is, you know, I keep seeing, cause visual, we're visual people, that continuum. And I see fear and control as protective, which we need protection sometimes, right? I see agency as creative. I believe humans are inherently creative beings. And, and I see,

Heather Gates 
Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
Fear focused on future. I see agency focused on the present. And I see surrender as co-creative. We bring our agency to meet something bigger. Now, however you define that, whether that's nature, whether that's an ecosystem of humans, whether that is divine intelligence, whether it's God, I really don't care. But it's this idea that it's my full agency with...

something else in service of new potential. So it's not, I'm not trying to control the future. I am bringing my full creative intelligence to an emergent future potential. So that, I don't see surrender as passive. I see it as opening our hands enough to let something else come in rather than kind of gripping. And

Heather Gates 
Hmm.

Heather Gates 
Hmm.

Heather Gates 
I need a new word then, right? So when I think about like, I'm not trying to control the future. Let's say, I'll pick an example that feels real to me, is I feel really passionately right now about conversations around responsible AI that keep technology in service of human flourishing. So I'm not trying to control,

Meghan O'Malley 
Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
Can we use the word influence? From a place of agency where I have creativity, can I, I am trying, it feels true to me. Tell me how you see it. Is when I have a here's what I imagine as a future state, I am trying to influence the collective ecosystem that it ends up that way. So it's not.

Meghan O'Malley 
What about contribute? Influence even feels controlling to me when I hear it. Yeah. Impact doesn't. And this is where we can unpack language a million. know, we all have associations and

Heather Gates 
Really?

Heather Gates 
That's interesting. Yeah, and I don't know that that's helpful. I just for now, like, let's give it a word because I don't wanna lose that. Like, so my whole career, our work in the field is that, and when you work in systems change and policy change, like, you are trying to change a reality in some way, or you're trying to co-create, you're trying to, what is the word you said?

Meghan O'Malley 
Mm-hmm.

Meghan O'Malley 
Totally.

Meghan O'Malley 
So co-create or contribute, but here's something that might help. So I was listening to a podcast not long ago. I feel bad that I can't remember what it was. That's way my brain works. Yeah, shout out energetically to whoever that was. But she was talking about high functioning co-dependency and she was talking about control. And she said, control assumes that we know the answer.

Heather Gates 
contribute.

Heather Gates 
Shout out to whoever it is.

Meghan O'Malley 
And that's the part that I think gets tangled when we're talking about positive change is it can teeter towards a bit of a narcissistic lens. Like I know what needs to happen. Whereas co-creation and bringing your full creative agency, but leaving a little space for what you don't know is different. And I think we don't, because Americans and English language, we don't have enough

Heather Gates 
you

Meghan O'Malley 
verbal nuance in our language to name that well, but I think it gets collapsed and impact and influence and control for a lot of people is like, know what this needs to be, make it so. And there's a weird thing that can happen because of course we want justice. Of course we want people to be safe. Of course we want people to be fed. Of course we, you know, all these things, of course, but the path toward it.

has many doorways and has many factors. And it gets a little messy because our brains want certainty. Our identities and our egos want to know.

Heather Gates 
Right, right, right, right.

Heather Gates 
And I can get on board with the idea that, right, so even if that's the intention, that's the North Star, that's the mission statement that we're moving towards.

Meghan O'Malley 
Okay.

Yeah.

Heather Gates 
And we still, right, we still have to move forward with an intention that any one individual should not assume they have all the answers. I think that points to collaborative process. It points to trust and group understanding. So when I say I'm trying to influence, it's not necessarily, but it is how I am going to express my agency with others, always humbled by I can only know a piece of it, but from what I do know, here's what I think. Because I don't want to give away the like,

Meghan O'Malley 
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
That's it.

Heather Gates 
I have opinions and this does not feel like the path. So what can we do together to contribute to a future that we imagine? And there's, so there's some, guess the surrender in that is more, it might look a little bit different or I'm gonna stay open to possibility in a path. But I don't wanna surrender to the like, well,

We'll just let those folks figure it out and here's what that probably will look like.

Meghan O'Malley 
I don't think that's surrender. I think that's being passive.

Heather Gates 
that's interesting difference. Because to me, surrender when I hear the language, like I said, it feels like hands off the wheel. And that's not how you imagine it.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
No, it's very co and it's probably being shaped by, I did a year long intensive leadership training through the Coactive Training Institute and everything was based in the co. It was, was, you know, bringing your full authentic self and learning how to dance with other, learning how to dance with the space between learn. Like that was the leadership model that I was steeped in. Gosh, it's been over 10 years. So it's been, it's a part of how I move and how I think.

Heather Gates 
Okay.

Meghan O'Malley 
and how I kind of my lens on life. And so for me, surrender is remembering the co, whether it's the co of I'm in a partnership and I need to remember to be curious about this other person's lens or I'm in a, on a team and I need to remember this is part of why I love human design that we all have different strategies and needs so that people are honored and the co gets to exist or on the spiritual level.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, they're different.

Meghan O'Malley 
I am here building my business, doing what I'm here to do, trying my best to understand what is my piece of the puzzle, and then practicing being receptive to guidance beyond what I think I know.

Heather Gates 
Yes, then I can I can do so maybe I've just been trying on the wrong. I can I can try on that version of surrender that is more a process surrender. It's a surrender to. Yeah, I can surrender to the alchemy and to the what are we making together, which is different than being passive about something I feel passionately is an injustice.

Meghan O'Malley 
to weave that in.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah, there's an alchemy to it.

Heather Gates 
or not in the wellbeing of humans flourishing and those sorts of things. Like I am going to exert agency and co-create and do what I can with others and all the other entangling things around us to try to create that. And maybe that's the difference is in this energy of creating.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Heather Gates 
Like you said, agency feels creative to you and control feels grabby. So it may be even more, it's maybe less even about surrender and it's about the difference in control and agency. Just say.

Meghan O'Malley 
or protection and creativity, because we're always dancing with that as humans.

Heather Gates 
Mm-hmm. To kind of, to open up to the creativity among us all. given that the word, I mean, part of this even is just the words. Yeah, I, you know, I, anybody who works with me knows all the time that I'm being into common language and common understanding because we get so stuck in it. We think even with common language, like, Meghan's talking about surrender. Here's how I think about that. We think about it really differently.

And then you peel the onion back and realize that you're defining the word really in a different conceptual way than I think about it. You think about the way I was thinking about surrender in a way that you would call really passive. And there still is, well, or acceptance sometimes. So let me give a different example. So when I think about, let's just try this word on a little bit. When I think about things that I feel surrendered to right now.

Meghan O'Malley 
or apathy.

Heather Gates 
We are going to not be in this office after another week or two. And I feel very sad about that. My kiddo is going away to college. I feel surrendered to the reality that I cannot control that is those things. I don't necessarily feel like a co-creator, have agency in it. What I have agency around in it is honoring the and where sometimes I'm really fired up or sometimes I'm sad, but the open handedness of this is happening and I'm just gonna roll with it. 

So maybe that's something different. Maybe that's acceptance if we wanna just bring nuance is I accept that this is happening. I don't know how that word fits. I think I've been using surrender to mean a lot of things. Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
I feel that as part of surrender, it can. And I think in my experience and I've seen it in friends and clients, when I accept and that is a version of surrender for me, like, this is what's happening. This is what's happening. Instead of trying for, you for your example, the control would look like I'm gonna try and talk this landlord into...

keeping me in my office, right? I wanna force what I think I want. Whereas the surrendered energy for me is this is happening. But the agency comes in solving the new puzzle that's in front of you. So the agency would be like, so now what's the pivot? I have creative opportunity here. This or something better. This or something better. And that's a mantra that has saved me when I've been in multiple leaps of faith. Like, okay, this is not what I wanted.

Heather Gates 
Right, right.

Heather Gates 
Right. So now what am I going to do about it?

Meghan O'Malley 
It's happening. This or something better. My creative intelligence and my relationships on all levels, my connections, my whatever, help me solve this puzzle. Like I'm here for it. I'll do what's mine to do. I'm gonna do my best not to force things that aren't for me.

And it's messy, it's messy because...

Heather Gates 
Let just, yeah, I just want to let that soak in for you. That was a lot, I think, that you just said is your approach to, again, I think it's the discernment, if we dig into the words a little bit, between.

or the dance the and of effort or agency and acceptance

Meghan O'Malley 
Tons of nuance there.

Heather Gates 
So it's tons of nuance. And so often for me, it's like acceptance first and then I can take some kind of action. And it's a tool in the toolkit. So again, examples just to be more specific. I am at acceptance that my kids are gonna leave the house and do their thing. I am not at acceptance for some of what I see around technology use, right? 

I understand that it's that way, but not in I'm gonna, it is what it is and whatever, or maybe I am, maybe I'm like, this is what it is, and now where do I have agency back to what you just said, where do I have agency, what is mine, that's an important piece of it, because there is another layer of acceptance to me of what is not, even in an issue, if we take these just big issues, adolescent mental health, these big issues, mission statements on the wall,

Meghan O'Malley 
Yep. Yep.

Heather Gates 
you know, sometimes we're holding an organizational lens to this question. What's ours to hold? Sometimes I'm holding it as a what's Heather's to hold, figuring out what in the whole thing am I gonna have exert some agency around, lean into creating. And part of maybe acceptance is there's a piece of the, you know, the circle, the layer of the onions that I'm not.

Meghan O'Malley (45:49.592)
Yeah. Yep.

Heather Gates 
I'm not gonna, it's still there and I'm not gonna try to change it. So I am a lot in this dance between agency and acceptance.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah, I think we are all those that care. And for me, acceptance is not the same as agreement or consent.

Heather Gates 
Agree a thousand percent.

Meghan O'Malley 
It is not the same. Acceptance is the stance that allows us to not get tangled and drained by resistance and allows us to keep moving forward. Like this is happening. I don't agree with it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't want it. I don't choose it. None of that. But it is so far beyond my sphere of control or my zone of genius or whatever it is.

Heather Gates 
I do not like it. Don't like it, don't want it.

Meghan O'Malley 
that I cannot attempt to control it, because to do that means I don't get to move forward and contribute. I'm stuck in resisting life. And if we all do our piece, my belief is there's a lot of human potential if we all do what is ours to dorather than trying to do it all because we think we should have some superhuman cape that is gonna fix the broken world. It doesn't work that way.

Heather Gates 
Hmm.

Heather Gates 
Yes.

Meghan O'Malley 
It's unsexy incremental changes. Yes, yes.

Heather Gates 
Water the orchid. Water your sticks and leaves, orchid. So just to call out, I think in this, I'm always interested in naming the and, honoring where we get tangled up in it. And then what tools might we have to help people find forward in that? So we've already talked a lot about, I mean, in this one, there's tangly even in.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Heather Gates 
what the words might mean or what they think they mean and what our approach there is, it gets tangly in there's so much nuance even, know, control and agency are different, acceptance and surrender are different, passivity is different, like there's a lot of texture in here that the discernment is very specific. I just, mean, I think we get tangled up anytime that we're decision-making.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Heather Gates 
You know, there's just you're trying to wrestle with depending, right, depending on how dialed in and where you kind of they're getting your clarity around. Is this a place for me to have agency? You know, what do I accept it like we get in the ore of it? What is my lane? How do we figure that out? And it can be I think we can get stuck in overwhelm sometimes to where do you where do you think in this?

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Heather Gates 
conversation and your experience either as yourself or in working with others. Where do you see people get stuck? Is it really in the resistance side of it, as you mentioned in the very beginning of the podcast, or where do you see the kind of tensions show up in this conversation?

Meghan O'Malley 
I mean, I think the greatest thing I see that is the stuck point are fear and shame. Like fear of, I can't bear the idea of, and I often work with people who are...

Heather Gates 
Hmm.

Meghan O'Malley 
in a place where they're being asked by their inner guidance or life to make a big shift. you know, leaving a steady corporate job to start their own purpose-driven business or leaving a relationship. You know, I'm often, that's the space I'm in and the fear of I'm one who knows myself to do this, be this, and to shift into someone who doesn't know, who isn't certain, who doesn't have a plan, who doesn't have a steady paycheck, all these things.

Heather Gates 
Hmm.

Meghan O'Malley 
I think fear is inherently paralyzing. And that's why so much of my work has, has culminated in this awareness that it's about helping people cultivate a different relationship with change and with fear. That's what my whole TEDx was about. And it's not about finding the perfect plan. There are tons of coaches who will charge lots and lots of money to say they have the perfect plan for you. And I'm not saying there aren't people with good guidance out there, but

the truth and the path is, I believe, emergent in nature and uniquely designed for each person. There's no expert that can tell you the right way. There are people who can guide you back home to your remembering. And that's what I do. And that fear keeps people stuck. It keeps people sick. It keeps people...

Heather Gates 
Mm.

Meghan O'Malley 
disenchanted with life, keeps people helpless and hopeless and trying to control a bunch of stuff that actually isn't a priority because they don't want to look at the things that they're scared to change.

Heather Gates 
Hmm.

Meghan O'Malley 
And then the shame of being the secret shame of I'm living a life I should be proud of and I'm not. I'm living a life that should make me happy and it doesn't. And that guilt and shame I see keeping people really stuck as well.

Heather Gates 
Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
When you just described some of the work that you do, I'm reminded of the episode where we did where I talked to the guest about being an authenticity doula. And it feels like that's what you're doing for folks too. It's such an important role.

Meghan O'Malley 
Mm-hmm. I used to say I was a magical possibility doula. I help people remember what's possible beyond what they ever told themselves they could dream up because I do have a deep and fierce belief in the creative potential within humans and the deep wisdom. It is something I will stand on. I will stand on. will stand on. We limit ourselves and I limit myself. I'm one of the people. I live my work. I realize my limits over and over and over again where I'm...

Heather Gates 
Nice.

Heather Gates 
I agree.

Heather Gates 
Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
confining myself to a too small life and a too small self, but, I mean, that's why I use the term magic for so long in my work is it felt like magic, what I saw happen for people, the healing, the relational shifts, it just is awe inspiring.

Heather Gates 
And I would say my lens on that is the inspiration that comes not only from our own possibility, but from collective. So, so much of my work is in facilitation and bringing people together to build connection and strategy and complexity with each other. And so often, you know, get, this is where I'll just get really fired up about this is I want, I do want us to remember our agency.

Meghan O'Malley 
Absolutely. Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
That's it.

Meghan O'Malley 
Totally.

Heather Gates 
on these big things that we care about, right? To remember our creative potential, not only on our own, but together and what we can make. I'm not supposed to say the word influence because that feels controlling, but I still want to say that we can shape. I mean, to your point, you're trying to help imagine, right? You're imagining and possibility and bigger. believe part of what I'm saying, like when I say I believe in human flourishing,

Meghan O'Malley 
You can, you can say it, say your words.

Meghan O'Malley 
I'm creating ripples. Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Heather Gates 
for everyone, I believe in our potential. I believe in moving in that direction. I think what you're reminding me of is not to get too grippy about what exactly that looks like. And I can still be passionately in service to paying attention to and changing and talking about what feels like it's out of alignment with that future possibility. I believe we can do this together and

you if we just lay your piece on it that I you were saying that fear and shame are sometimes in the way. So what are let's leave, let's just call out a couple of tools, Meghan. So if we wanted to help, if people were like, great, that's a lot. It feels tangly. It always has, and it still feels tangly. Thank you for naming the tangle. What tools, I know you just did a Ted talk. So if there are things in there that you want to call out,

Meghan O'Malley 
Ha!

Heather Gates 
But let's just, yeah, how do we navigate this? What does forward look like?

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah, so that is my whole TEDx. So watch it when it's out there. But the bottom line that I found, and this was through a lot of reflection on my own journey and the work I've done over the years, is it comes down to connection, but not just the cute idea of connection. It's connection in three directions. So first connecting with our own.

Meghan O'Malley 
Creative intelligence, inner guidance, and the wisdom and intelligence of our nervous systems. We have to learn to regulate our nervous systems if we are to evolve, because our nervous system will keep us safe. That's its job, to keep us safe through sameness. So that's direction one, really cultivating a healthy connection with ourselves that's multi-layered. And then the next is connecting outward to each other. Neurologically, if we have healthy relationships and community,

the stress hormones that keep us stuck quiet and our agency becomes more accessible. So if we're regulating our own nervous system, showing up in community, just our presence impacts that community. There's really cool research about how our presence and our energy impacts not just our friends, but their friends and their friends' friends. It's three ripples outward. So it's a really powerful...

Heather Gates 
Hmm.

Meghan O'Malley 
the way we show up, the essence we show up with, and that's really discounted. And then the last is connecting to something beyond ourselves. And there's really cool research by Dr. Lisa Miller, who speaks to, she has literally scanned brains of people who had some sense of spiritual connection, not religious again, I'm not on some sort of weird evangelical situation here. This is about getting beyond the self to...

a sense of love, a sense of support, a sense of guidance, whatever it might be, it builds structures in the brain that I wish I could remember the research, but it showed significant decrease in depression, anxiety, and addiction. So the ways we get stuck, and most people have some sort of addictive pattern, it doesn't have to be drugs or alcohol. When we can get out of that, I mean, goodness, the agency and creative potential.

that we then have access to, because we're not bound by those patterns that keep us stuck, is tremendous. But we have to get out of the conditioned story and expectation and pedestaled ideal that we are here to do it all on our own and never ask for help and be sparkly and shiny the whole time. That is a dead end.

Heather Gates 
Right. Have the brownie patch. Try that. Didn't work. Do not recommend. We're actually works for a minute.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
enough to get gold stars to feed your ego, which is the self-fulfilling thing, I know I've done it.

Heather Gates 
Yes, just saying. I think it would be a different thing if it didn't have some outcomes. So yes, connection in all the levels, self to others and to something even bigger than that, add it up, whatever that is. Nature for me is the place. I talk on various like it.

Meghan O'Malley 
Our world loves it.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah. Yep.

Heather Gates 
And it feels humbling to me. It's connecting, but it's also humbling. Like when I zoom way out and go, I'm made of the same stuff as stars and dirt and turtles. I just feel grateful to get to be some mixture of all that that gets to exist right now that it feels all inspiring to me the way this all works. It's where I surrender to

Meghan O'Malley 
We are nature.

Heather Gates 
all that I don't know about how it all works. It's the zoom out, know, it's the like way out and see the earth from the from space kind of view. And then connection to me, I would say is helpful in a lot of reasons when you talk about connection and relationship to each other. It's also the place to me where joy lives. I think I've said on prior episodes how much joy gives me roots. You these things that make us feel

Meghan O'Malley 
Totally.

Heather Gates 
connected and belonging and really that are the purpose anyway. So often I think we're kind of seeking something that gets us there and when you can remember that that's the magic. I do wanna double click on some of the things that you said about connection to ourselves. There's a lot in there and we could do a whole nother episode on that piece. But when we talk about regulating our nervous systems and the way that we show up, that has been the place where so much of me kind of becoming is.

Meghan O'Malley 
Hopefully.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Gates 
is that work? So I just I wonder if you have any tips for people who say okay noted and now what does that look like? So where do you where do you point folks who may want to learn more about the this just doesn't feel like I want it to in myself in my in my felt body experience because that's where you know for me just to kind of go back to it we called it both control and perfectionism is

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Heather Gates 
I just got, got to a place where I could feel that what I was up to was not sustainable or allowing me to step into what my heart wanted to do, but I didn't feel like, mean, I don't know how to explain it to people, but it just felt like the energy, the zhuzhiness in my body was too intense to hold the moment.

And certainly I have my own journey that I've been through, but I'm curious for you where you would point people to start to learn more, to be supported in that piece of it, and then we'll start to kind of wrap the conversation up.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah. So I have two, parts of me that are wanting to grab the mic right now. One is the one that's tried on so many tools and is somatically trained and has all this, you know, all these cool techniques and tools and ideas. But the other, and this is just where I am on my professional journey and my perspective on, on healing and growth is the simpler, the better.

And breath is the most powerful tool we have. It's free. You don't have to have anything special. And we like, when we're in an anxious reactive state or dysregulated state, we like to make things hard and overly complex to maintain the overwhelm. And so breath is a tool to show the body a different potential with out having to make it complex. So truly, if you breathe in through your nose for the count of four and out through your mouth, and sometimes I find it helpful to purse my lips like I've got a straw, so it makes the air go slower and let the exhale be at least a count of six. So it's gonna be longer. If you do four to five of those, you will feel different about whatever it is that's getting you tangled. And that's so short and so simple.

Heather Gates 
That's so helpful. Yeah, I love it.

Meghan O'Malley 
It just creates that shoehorn in our nervous system. like, let's say Bob two cubicles over said something that really wasn't cool. Go into the bathroom and do six breaths like that before you respond. It will be different. And I think if we can just create enough of a pause to show our body a different template of potential, it ripples up. That's what I learned through my somatic work is

The body is like 95 % of what fuels us and motivates us. And it's largely unconscious. So we can sort of lovingly force nudge whatever the body into a different gear that then ripples up into our thoughts, emotions and state of.

Heather Gates 
You

Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
Okay, you said pause, it reminds me, and I wish you were here in person, because I have a pause button in the car that I was supposed to bring you. Because this is what I'm talking about, y'all, when we talk about pause. Yes, agency lives in the pause. We have to slow it down, and easier said than done sometimes. the moment where from activation to action, the space in between,

Meghan O'Malley 
I know.

Meghan O'Malley 
That's where agency lives, in the pause.

Heather Gates 
if we can spread it out just a little bit. Megan, I love how small the tool is. And even breath work. So I love that you unpacked it even for us more because sometimes we hear about breath work and there are all bunch of different ways to do that. Some count, some are slower, what are faster? But four in, six out. So the slowing exhale, right? Inhale of four, exhale of six, do it a few times.

Meghan O'Malley 
It's gotta be simple.

Heather Gates 
And I think like even the smaller takeaways, just a slow exhale. Because you'll naturally inhale a slow exhale, do a few, see how it shifts your body. And we understand that our energy is contagious. And that's why this is such an important tool.

Meghan O'Malley 
That's it. That shifts the nervous system.

Meghan O'Malley 
And good, bad news, whatever our state of being is, that's what we bring into a room. When I got my Reiki attunements years ago, the Reiki master said to me, she said, Meghan, you have big energy. Whatever you feel, the room will feel. And that comes with a level of responsibility. And I'm an Enneagram One, so I care about my impact a whole, whole lot. And I was like, okay. So it's not about being perfect, but it's about being very mindful.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, I'm the same.

Heather Gates 
mindful, think so too.

Meghan O'Malley
and as responsible as I can be with what I bring into a space. And sometimes if I'm feeling messy, I just need to name it and I bring vulnerability into that space. It's not about always being love and light in a perfected form, but breath is really helpful.

Heather Gates 
And I made a couple notes about tools too, and I think your breath piece connects to so many of them because I'm thinking about where we get stuck or where I might get stuck in here is in discernment, is in decision making, is when do I wanna apply agency, when am I accepting or whatever. But I want all of that to come from a grounded place. So like first step always is breath, and then we have different capability.

Meghan O'Malley 
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Meghan O'Malley 
That's it.

Heather Gates 
to be curious, to connect with others, think about, more acceptance, different discernment, our brains are differently situated. So it's almost, it is the foundation for all the other tools, whether emotional or strategic or collaborative.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yep.

Meghan O'Malley 
and more acceptance.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, whatever those are. you know, there certainly are lots of other things people can do to help. it's, you know, go walk around the building to take a deep breath. But, you know, we'll just leave it as. As an interesting simplicity amidst the complexity of navigating all of this is step one. Breathe somebody gave me, it just is occurring to me right now. Maybe it was my mom. I've had this little wooden sign.

for a thousand years that says don't forget to breathe. And it always felt kind of eye-rolly to me. And now I'm like, well, it's been the secret to this whole thing the whole time. You know, yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
Mm-hmm.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah. Simplicity is radical right now. I wanna say it's, I often think about what's my, how can my life be an act of activism? Like how can my beingness contribute to the world I say I want? Cause I can't really say I want a certain world if I'm a hot mess over here and not doing anything about it. And allowing regulation and breathing to be accessible and simple.

Heather Gates 
I feel that.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, fill that.

Meghan O'Malley 
and loving and kind. It feels really important because I, you know, we, this is a conversation for another day, but I think a lot of times tools and techniques are reserved for the very privileged. And I think part of my mission is accessibility. And if every kid learned

Heather Gates 
I was just thinking about that.

Meghan O'Malley 
how to regulate their nervous system in the most simple way. If every corporate culture had a foundational five minutes start to their meeting where there was a nervous system regulation approach that they did regularly, the meetings would be different. The schools would be different, right? And it doesn't need to be some performance of healing. It just is remembering what our bodies are capable of.

Heather Gates 
There's so much and I'm just sitting here going, I wanted to talk about trust and how it's related to all of this, but we're have to do that another day or we'll be here another hour. Yeah, I think I just, I wanna honor the complexity and the simplicity when you think about really across the ands. So often I'm saying, stay curious about the and. This conversation is reminding me about connection.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah.

Heather Gates 
I talk about connection a lot. You're reminding us that connection is multi-pronged. So remembering the power of connection. And just to name that too as a tool. You didn't call that out necessarily in that way, but to remind us it is the tool for all of it, in particular navigating uncertainty and change and fear and shame. So maybe as takeaways.

Meghan O'Malley 
yeah.

Heather Gates 
power of breath, the power of connection as not, know, little side things to ponder when we have time, but really as fuel. Meghan, for people listening, help connect us. So as you introduce yourself in the work that you do, even maybe anchor to this conversation, are you primarily helping, because I want to let folks know where to find you, primarily working with individuals at this point? Are you working with teams and organizations?

Meghan O'Malley 
I'm actually my, my new kind of rebrand focuses more on teams, organizations, and culture shifting within, within entities. So I still, I think I will always work with individuals to some extent, but I'm really focusing on people who identify as purpose-driven leaders or impact makers, the people who are like this, the old way isn't working. What do I do? How do I.

Heather Gates
Okay. Okay.

Meghan O'Malley 
How do I do this? So I've got a couple different things and I'm doing a lot more public speaking and facilitation, because those are big joys of mine. Because one plus one equals 6,000 when we're talking about community. Teamwork amplifies exponentially the impact.

Heather Gates 
So in culture shift, just, wanna drill down another layer. If people, what would people be experiencing in their organizations to go, Meghan can help us solve for this. What's the pain point? What's the pain point that would point them? I want it to be really clear for people when they should think about you. And usually that comes from a, we're experiencing this, who's the person?

Meghan O'Malley 
Wow.

Meghan O'Malley 
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of portals, but the main essence is the world or the context around what we're doing is changing beyond our control or the things that used to work aren't. And we keep doubling down on what used to work and it's not working and people are suffering and the energy and vibe of this is not feeling right. I come in and help create a different ecosystem that

Heather Gates 
Yeah.

Meghan O'Malley 
can tap into creative intelligence to evolve. Yeah.

Heather Gates 
Okay, so if y'all have things going on and the vibe just not right or how you imagine it could be, yeah, if you're feeling, well, and stuck in a specific way, right? There's nuance, because they're stuck in a lot of ways in organizations, but stuck in culture, stuck in a vibe that feels like it's not fully realizing, because you and I talked in this episode about collective potential. Sometimes I call it collaborative advantage.

Meghan O'Malley 
I hope people get out of stuckness.

Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

Meghan O'Malley 
yeah.

Heather Gates 
But there's a certain alchemy and a certain magic that we all know and have experienced to get there. And if the vibe is off, the famous Meghan O'Malley might be able to help you with that. So how do people find you with your rebrand socials? And we will put the show notes. have all this. But just to remind us, it TED Talk? Y'all listen to Megan's TED Talk?

Meghan O'Malley 
you

Meghan O'Malley 
Yes, yep, unshakable. The power of connection when everything is crumbling is my TEDx that should be out soon, probably by the time this episode airs. I've got a book that I co-authored called Unstuck Yourself, Thrive Beyond Burnout and Discover Your True Purpose, which is pretty great. We're getting some great feedback on that. And you can find all of the things, including information about my podcast and offerings at

Heather Gates 
Awesome.

Meghan O'Malley 
megan-omalley.com and that's M-E-G-H-A-N-omalley.com. If you don't put the dash in, you're going to find your way to Meghan O'Malley, the New York City comedian. That's not me. Yeah. She sent me an email several months ago that was hilarious because she, somebody was trying to do some book PR pitching to me and she was like, I think this is you. Meghan O'Malley, this is Meghan O'Malley. So that's not me.

Heather Gates 
that's a different famous Meghan O'Malley.

Heather Gates 
All the Meghan 's are, all the Megan O'Malley's are famous. That's super fun story. I'm so grateful for you wading into the complexity of this one with me. do have, I'm gonna think about in particular, I think as I, some of my takeaways from this one are to think about, I wanna think about surrender differently. I just, feel like I've added new language that feels more aligned.

Meghan O'Malley 
Hahaha

Heather Gates
that doesn't feel passive.

Meghan O'Malley 
Co-creative surrender.

Heather Gates 
And that co-creative, I think, acceptance is a piece of it. thanks to everybody for hanging in with us. So again, y'all can check out the show notes for Meghan's content. Reminder, stay curious. Take some breaths, some slow exhale breaths. We are humaning and life-ing right there with you. You are not alone in the need to take breaths. in the imagining of a future that's beautiful, the second guessing of your role in it. We're right there with you cheering you on. Hope you'll share the episode with somebody if it resonates and we look forward to having you all with us next time. Thank you. Thanks, Meghan.

Meghan O'Malley 
Thank you.

Heather Gates
The Stand in the And podcast is supported by Human Centered Strategy, where we help leaders and teams build connection and strategy and complexity so that everyone can flourish. To learn more or to work with us, please visit us online at Human Centered Strategy.com or message me on LinkedIn.