The Art of Holding Both Ambition & Contentment

In this episode, small business founders, Heather and Erica, explore the intricate & imperfect balance between ambition and contentment, sharing personal insights, practical tools, and cultural reflections. As ambitious entrepreneurs with families, they discuss navigating the rhythms of life and work, emphasizing the importance of self-defined success, noticing little moments of contentment, trusting your intuition, and building supportive community.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions shared in this episode belong solely to the host and the guest and do not necessarily reflect those of their employees, clients, or affiliated organizations.

Host: Heather Gates, MPH, Owner & Strategy Partner, Human-Centered Strategy, LLC
Guest: Erica McArthur Allison, President & CEO, Formation PR + Brand 

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Transcript

Technical Note: Show notes are created with the help of Riverside.FM AI and thoughtfully reviewed by us. They’re meant to capture the spirit of the conversation, though they may not reflect every word exactly.

Heather 
Hello, this is Heather Gates, and I welcome you to the Stand in the And podcast, where we have honest conversations about the messy complexity of the human experience, where we get stuck, and how we find forward in the and of it all where many things are true at once. This podcast is designed especially for those of us who want to make things more beautiful and better for everyone, and sometimes need reminding that we are human too. I'm so glad you're here.

Heather 
Welcome back to the podcast, y'all. I am so humbled and grateful to be here at the table today for conversation with my friend and thought partner in small business, Erica Allison. Erica, thank you for being here today. 

Erica 
Thank you for inviting me. Makes it easy for me. 

Heather
Well, and for letting us host this at your place. Well, the commute was good. Before I gush about what a full circle moment is for me to even be here and my connection to your space, introduce us in a way that feels meaningful helps give context to the remarks you're gonna share.

Erica 
Okay. I thought about this when you talked about introducing things for the prep

Heather 
It's trickier than you think to introduce yourself up.

Erica 
It is. It's not like I'm at a conference or applying for a job. No, no. So I thought about it and I'm several things to various people. So for this podcast, I'm the CEO of a business that I've founded nearly twenty years ago. Next year will be twenty years. To my clients and colleagues, I'm a communicator, a storyteller, strategic thinker, crisis communicator. And I really hope a servant leader. That's a goal I've had for a long time. I'm also a proud mom to two really awesome humans, both at various stages of leaving the nest. One has already left, but still close enough that I can see them. And one is about to take the big leap to college four hours away in the fall. Go Wolf Pack.

And then I also thought it would be fun to say that I'm a I'm a Gen X kid, which technically makes me middle aged, but that's hard to say. But it also makes super independent, resilient, and a very, very likely a fixer of all things, even if I'm not qualified to fix them

Heather 
We're a confident bunch. Yeah.

Erica 
We just say, Yeah, I got this. We'll figure it out. You need something done on your head? Sure, I'll do it. Yeah, no problem. you want me to fix that toilet? Yeah, I can fix it until then I have to call someone. But I'm gonna give it my best shot. I'm gonna figure it out. And so those are those are all the ways that I feel are appropriate to not only introduce me to your audience, but just describes who I am and how I'm feeling right now.

Heather 
Well and that figure it mean, I'm just stuck with the figure it out and how much in business the way that and we'll talk more about that, but you know, the just the tenacity that small business requires. And when you have teams that are smaller, everybody has a bit of that. Yeah. We have to figure it out. Yeah, we have to you know, we're one YouTube video away from how do we do a podcast? Right. You know? All right. I don't know. I don't know. But we'll figure it out.

Erica 
I just learned about AI last week. I'm really good at it now. So

Heather 
See. She's just figuring it out one at a time. I'm glad you mentioned that you're coming up on twenty years because I was trying to think. I think our paths crossed. So you started your business a little bit sooner than I did the first time, I think. So I started my business or really didn't on purpose start a business, just was trying to do work while I had a baby and Nash is eighteen now. So roughly the timeline is is similar. And I just remember us kind of crossing paths. We have similar sometimes we have overlapping client type. and so from way back then it's just been I want to say an honor. It's been inspiring, actually, is a better word to watch you build this. And when I think about, because it's hard sometimes, I feel like I have caught other, you know, of people who are doing consulting or project based work. And sometimes it feels like something they're just doing in the meantime.

Erica 
Aw, wow. Thank you.

Heather 
But to be in a place where like, no, this is what I'm doing. And I'm doing it at a scale where I, you know, have staff and those things, but I'm also not running a hundred person consulting firm. It's a hard to find, you know, who who are your mentors or what are who's helping you imagine. So it's I've always had you a step ahead and a level up to to help me imagine what this

could look like. And so it's then been fun times where we get I get to refer to you or where I need to reach out to you for support in my business as we rebrand. So I've just appreciated the thought partnership and then watching your business growth over time. Much less than we didn't say this, but you are here in Hendersonville where I live. So that it's local and I've just appreciated that relationship and watching y'all. Cause now you're 10, you have a team of 10.

Erica 
I do.

Heather 
Do which I in my mind I'm like, That's the biggest I could never like that feels big to me. I'm like, ten is the max.

Erica 
Ten a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it takes a lot of brain power and capacity because you're always thinking about them. They're like my additional children, honestly. And I don't mean that in a demeaning way to anyone on my team. It's just thinking about them kind of that background track running in your head when you're thinking about your kids.

Heather 
Yeah. Right. And at various times, you know, I think it's just been helpful to have somebody to thought partner with around contracting and employment and scale or growth or not and all those things. And I think we'll touch on some of that today. I'm curious how you how you dance with that. Fun fact for those who don't know is the room that we're in right now actually is the space that we did our website photo shoot in. So it's fun to sit here with you now. It's been I'm reminded it means it's time for a new website. I think it speaks to your the generosity in which you run your business. Right. The graciousness, because it's one thing to kind of be successful in what you're doing, but to have an an openness to sharing that with others, to sharing your space with others. It's not how everybody does this. but that spirit of generosity just an important other thing. Okay.

Erica 
Well thank you. Well I will say I've always enjoyed our conversations because you ask such good questions. Mm. They make me think a little differently about whatever the topic is. Interesting. Yeah. So that's been very helpful over the years.

Heather 
I take that. I'll hold that close, especially from someone who is such a tough question asker. I remember feeling very when you were helping with my brand. I was like, I don't know. I thought I already said it. Why do I have to say it a different way? You're tough. And create a great product. Okay, before we get into it, because we are going to lean in today to the topic of contentment and ambition. But it's our tradition before we do that to honor our own humanity and do a little and what I call an and stand to see if there's an and that you're standing in that you just want to acknowledge today. You just did a nice and of your context as you introduced yourself. if there was anything else you want to acknowledge, but just about how you're showing up today in the and of things. I'm happy to go first if you want me to, because I'll also share.

Erica 
Sure. Well, I was laughing because I I am a a thinker and prepper. When I get questions, I'm gonna try and use them to prepare. But I I feel like I'm both excited and a little apprehensive about the conversation because when you're talking about ambition and contentment, it can be so intricately tied to your internal drive. We could air into some self help here. So

Heather 
I hope you're here to give me some help. So okay. So it's feeling a little vulnerable in that way. I can't I I told you before we recorded, I'm just really excited personally to see what you have to say on this. I think I think my topic is related to today or the and that I'm standing in that I'm feeling most is the the tension most simply I think said it between fast and slow.

Erica 
Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah.

Heather 
And almost my intolerance for anything and it's like I'd have no other gear besides race and stillness. And I find that if when I'm in the other, I want the other one. When it's so I'm like, you know, it's almost almost wanted to call it the the and of boredom and overwhelm. But finding the Goldilocks. Of this feels like a rhythm that's stimulating and exciting without being too much and not boredom. it just isn't interesting. So when I'm in, I'm currently in a faster paced time. And I'm finding myself really deliberately having to interrupt my own momentum to just try to be present, reset, because it can just that's great. The momentum can spin. So

I'm in that foot on the brake, foot in the gas in a really felt way right now. Yeah. So if you hear me speed up and then realize I need to sit back and take a breath, just know that that's my MO.

Erica 
No, I get it. I can relate to that.

Heather 
Okay. Let's see how that shows up to contentment. Cause clearly what I just described is probably me not feeling fully content with either one. Okay. I think I wanna pass to you first on this. First of all, do want to say that this topic came from a listener. We haven't done that a lot.

You know, I've so many ideas of what I want to talk about, but it was fun to have somebody ask us to talk about contentment and ambition. And so I reached out to you. Thank you for being up for it. But I do, I think about you and I think about ambition and the conversations that we have, I suspect that this is something that you have to think about. So when even when I came to you with this topic, like what do the words mean to you? What do them coexisting mean?

Erica 
Hmm. So much. So much there. Well, I it's interesting because the word I gravitated to first was ambition. it's an interesting word because it can have both positive and negative connotations to it. and and of course I want to look at the definition and it's the internal drive that motivates individuals to work hard, overcome obstacles, and pursue personal or professional advancement. That sounds great. I mean, what's wrong with that? Mm-hmm. It's when it tips too far and it takes over, or the ambition or the goals maybe are external rather than internal. And that's when it can get tricky. And it can also the the negative connotations and positive connotations can vary widely depending on gender. If I were a man and had the same level of ambition that I do, it would be completely fine.

Heather 
Mm.

Erica 
And expected and applauded. But sometimes as a woman, especially if you're a mom and you're running a business and you're not always there for every event, or maybe can't be, it can be viewed in a negative way. Like, well, she's just too ambitious. It can then tip. so over the years, I've been at this a long time, not just with my business, but just work in general. I can't avoid that I am ambitious and I'm not going to apologize.

For that, what I can do is try and understand it more and try and sit with it and and get at the heart of what does that mean for me as a person, both professionally and personally? So the there's another and there of the professional and personal. As a business owner and entrepreneur, there's always this undercurrent of ambition, at least for me, and everything that we do.

Are we filling the pipeline? Do we have enough clients? Am I gonna hit the revenue goals? Is the staff getting what they need? Do they need more support? Do I need more support, you know, to be able to do this? And then after doing it 20 years, you get tired, you know? But sometimes the that doesn't mean the ambition is gone. Especially because I I don't know that I I can't speak for everyone. I think my ambition is part of my DNA. It's baked into ho I am, how I was raised, what I'm about.

Heather 
So you don't feel it feels pretty steady state. The ambition side of the an feels fairly steady state.

Erica 
It can, as far as just understanding what is ambition for me. Now it has gotten out of hand at times and you get out of balance. And that's where I've looked at the contentment side of things too, because typically if I'm too out of balance and and overly ambitious for a goal, whether it's business or personal, the contentment goes away for me. Yeah.

Heather 
It but you're you're like really situated. I think about where do we get stuck in the and. You're really just kinda living on one side of it. If but it can tilt that way.

Erica 
If you do, yeah, I try not to. Right. I can tilt that way. And you tend to think of ambition solely, I do, as or or I think the norm is ambition relates to work. The problem is if I become too ambitious as a mom, God help those children, you know, because then I'm placing too much pressure on them. I'm trying to impart upon them.

my ambition and that's just not that may be or may not be who they are. So it's this balance of making sure it's my ambition about what is going to be best for for me, but also recognizing there are these other people in this in this sphere, be it at work or at home. It applies both places. Sometimes I can get too far out ahead of my team and I've got to stop and go, okay, wait a minute.

I'm way out here with whatever my vision is and what I think is the right next step. They may be a few steps behind because I haven't stopped to catch them up or meet them where they are. so I'll give a little side story with that. We're rebranding formation PR and brand. I didn't even mention what my business name was. Such a good marketer. but we're rebranding and it's taken a while for the new brand narrative and strategy to get to a point where I feel like,

Yes. And it hit me the other day that, oh my God, this this narrative is so I'll read you just a little piece of it. Just a little. so for this is the short version. Formation PR and brand is a strategic communications agency for mission-driven organizations navigating moments that matter with sector depth influency. And then another sort of

Heather 
we're gonna get on preview.

Erica 
positioning statement we have is that we believe that the organizations making an impact deserve a partner who genuinely gives a damn. And it can be about their mission, the community, getting it right. My goodness, that's a lot. That sounds very high stakes, doesn't it? But then I realized, that's me. Like there's nothing about me that's light and breezy.

Heather 
All right. You're like, we're trying to be I would intense about this

Erica 
I would love to be that way, but I am intense and that's okay to honor that. Yeah. We just have to make sure we're not outpacing the client. We're not outpacing the people around us. And and so that's when the contentment can get out of balance. And go too far

Heather 
Yeah. And for me, when you said that, I was like, gosh, I think I'm always just struggling with outpacing myself. Yes. My own where my ambition just outpaces my own actual capacity in a human body in a lifetime. I think I've said on a different podcast, you know, we talk about boundaries and boundaries at work and boundaries in other places. And I was like, ya’ll I'm just trying to figure out how to boundary myself all the time about how many things we can do or not do. I think I said in the and I'm like fast and slow. It's like all on either until burnout and like pause, or I'm having to try to interrupt that. So the ambition side of it, and I don't know that mine runs at a steady state in the same way that yours does. I think there are time I can I do feel like there are times when I think about that, and for me, there's the ambition side, which on very simply to me feels like more. I more that I'm seeking, not just more that's coming, but ambition to me, if I think about it, feels like more. Contentment feels like enough.

Erica 
True. Yeah. And and and that's where that connotation comes in because more may give off a negative vibe. Like, well, you've got enough. Why do you need more? And it's not so much for me, that's not that that's not how I'm carrying ambition. It's it truly is that drive to make it better, to do it right, to to overcome things, to get to the next goal. My partner was telling me about a a networking event he went to and the icebreaker was to share something about yourself 'cause something that's completely useless about yourself that's really interesting, that you're really good at. Like I one thing. And he said, right, because you don't do anything that's not functional or that doesn't mean something. Isn't that wild? And and I had to kind of sit with that for a minute.

Heather 
Like I need a project, I need a hobby.

Erica 
And that's why I've become so avid in my garden. I'm trying to to do something that that feels less like work. And so I have to monitor Yeah. Like even going for a walk, am I gonna beat my best?

Heather 
Drive you have.

Heather 
so you're like intensely competitive. Okay.

Erica 
With myself. Okay. Yes, more than others. But that's that gets intertwined with the ambition. And so to get to commitment, because I do want to talk about that. Over the past, I don't know, five years or so, I have been very focused on taking a beat and trying to pause. And it's okay to have that ambition, but let's also figure out contentment. And I used to think that contentment was something that you that that was just like light and breezy and it just comes to you. That's like a bait and switch. It's not. You do have to seek it out. You have to for me, I have to be purposeful about it. I have to find ways for it to evolve. If I pursue it too relentlessly, then it becomes work again.

Heather 
Right, you're like I'm being ambitious about seeking contentment. Right, you're right. I'm on a race with myself about how content I can be.

Erica 
It’s a real problem. 

Erica 
So it it's it's it's yeah, it's a constant sort of struggle. I feel like I've gotten better with it over the years, where I strip away the things that don't matter to me. Or the superfluous, the external sort of fluff and really just be more. And that does help me get to contentment. And I will say I am very content in my life. Love my life, love my Family, my business, my partner, everything, all of it is good. It just like anything, all of it can get a little wacky, a little out of balance from time to time.

Heather 
Yeah, I think too at moments where I feel ambitious, because I think this is and I'll come back to that, but I think it ebbs and flows for me in a different way than it does you. But ideally, if ambition is present, contentment is also. Now I'm fine if I just feel content. Cause I'll after Hurricane Helene, I don't remember I had a lot of other context too, but I just I would tell people I said, My ambition washed away in the storm. I don't want anything more than I have.

This is enough. Keep it small. Do what I can. That's just enough. Support my family. So mine really does come and go. That's it's tricky when you're trying to run a b right. The more people you involve in whatever your ambition includes, it would be nice if you had some steady commitment to the thing, not in and out of it, depending on your your whims. But I do feel it it really feels seasonal to me.

Erica 
Yeah. That's great point.

Heather
and I think it is a place where I get stuck. So you mentioned a little bit of the stuckness already in some of the and that you experience when it feels like there's some shoulding externally. So I think that's a really important just through line for all of this. Same for me is the stuckness isn't in I have ambition, I have contentment, I have them both. It's in the feeling that it should be something different than it is.

So for me, even you should be less ambitious. You should be more ambitious. Every time I go on LinkedIn, I feel like surely I should be more ambitious. And then I feel like I'm not enough. And then I have to remind myself that it is enough. It's okay. All of this other people's opinions about it is messy and I think it takes constant kind of washing away. Back to your earlier description of ambition. You're like, there's some other version and then there's my version.

So much of this and the ability to stand in the and of this, I think is honoring what is actually true for you. And letting like signing the permission slip that says, I'm gonna let X amount of clients and X amount of revenue and this much staff be enough. I think culture is a tangle because on some it's like, why should you be ambitious? And in other, it's you should always be doing more.

It's a lot to wipe out of your mental space to figure out what it is that you actually what is it that I want. And allowing that to be true. So just the the shoulds that come around this for me is a place that it shows up. In my ideal state, though, when ambition is present, that I can also make space for what I have right now is enough.

Erica 
Right.

Heather 
'Cause you can be. I think we can be so busy chasing the thing that we miss where we are right now. And I know I can be guilty of that and have had to have reflections like, can we celebrate where we are? Like I'm not great at the let's celebrate where we are and what we've accomplished because I'm always like, What's next? Right. And then I have times I yeah, I'm I'm in and out of this. Do I want more? Do I want less? So another place that gets so I think for me the stuck places in this tension.

Come from the shoulds of everything else that are not mine. And then figuring out, because I do give a lot of permission to myself, figuring out what is it that I want? Like what do I want right now? And it changes. I'm interested in your take on this, especially we're in similar life stage as far as kids. It's seasonal for me. You know, what.

Ambition looks like, what growth looks like, what enough looks like, and how that it probably the the biggest thing that changes that for me is life stage of my kids. And I it's I'm in a constant redesign about what I want. I think work improv when I say ambition, I really am thinking about work. What do I want more of? You know, how big do I want it to be? Yeah, so curious for you how it's as somebody who said you're kind of born.

Ambitious. Does it feel kind of steady for you or there ebbs and flows or what shifts the equation the most?

Erica 
No, it does not feel that steady for me. I think the the core is always there as far as the drive is there. I was raised by wild entrepreneurs and

Heather 
Okay, so you come at this from your roots, both of them. Really?

Erica 
Of that. You want to do something, you just go do it. You face it runs real deep. It's not always healthy, but it runs deep. but I think that's what instilled in me this desire to just always want to do more. Now that doesn't always equate to how society views that. I mean, my college years were not spent busting barriers with grades by any means. It it shows up in different ways. But today as a fifty something year old  who's about to see twenty years in business, I think I mentioned getting tired. The ambition does ebb and flow. And I look at I I have five year goals, I have revenue goals. But I also recognize, like with the last couple of years, we hit a goal and we've we've held steady. That's not a bad thing.

Because there's a lot of craziness in the world. There's a lot of uncertainty. My employees have a great lifestyle of a life work balance that that we support here. They enjoy the work they do. They make enough money. At least nobody's told me they don't, but but I feel like I pay we pay people very well for what they do and and we support their goals. So if we didn't progress, you know, if we didn't go and hit all those goals, is that okay? Sure.

It's okay. But there's also the other side of that where a lot of my employees may want more. You know, this business will continue to grow. At some point it may be sold. At some point, some of the employees may become owners. And so it needs, I want to set it up for them so that it is a highly functional business that can support what their goals are as well. So it's not just my ambition that factors into.

Heather 
It's a collective ambition really and how you make well collective ambition and contentment.

Erica 
It is. It is because it's tied to their contentment. And I guess that contentment shows up in the culture that we have that I protect fiercely here. So that if you are a parent or a caregiver of a parent or a a caregiver of a pet for that matter, you don't have to have a child to be a caregiver, that you have balance, that you are free to go do the thing you need to do. Because if you are not content in your life.

If your life is in turmoil, you sure as heck are not going to show up at work ready to roll. Things are not going to go well for you or work at that point. So just go take care of the thing. Go be present for your child. Go be present for your aging parent. Do what needs to be done. And then I know that when you are here at work, you're going to give your best and you're going to do your best. And that's I think where contentment shows up here at work. 

And making sure people feel like they have that space. And then in personal life too, for me and my family, I wanna make sure I'm giving myself that space to feel contentment. 

Heather 
Yeah, it just I want to question my own thinking about what ambi so I said ambition means more of what I want and I just tend to think of ambition as work related. But you have an ambition right now to spend more time in the garden that's gonna lead to contentment. So they're really it's more of a circular relationship and not even in either side of the and the tangled between the two. It's like, well, I'm seeking this and it's going to get me to contentment. I guess where it gets tricky for me is those feelings of if it if we if everything kind of feels not enough until we've achieved the thing, like a lot of life is in the not yet. A lot of living and leading is in the meantime. So figuring out to be like, nothing's grown in this garden, but I showed up today and that feels like enough. Yeah. I mean, I have to think a lot about, yeah. Last night I was sitting outside, I looked at the trees and I just had this sense of like,

This is enough. So just these little moments of enoughness. but yeah, so just something that you said, thinking about how ambition is not really just work related. It's it's it's a guess about goals and how that can apply to many places of your life. And this reminder, I used to say to people all the time, kind of in thinking about strategy and just life, like you were the CEO of your life and there's only one candidate for that position. 

So what is the strategy for that whole thing? Yeah. So so often we're thinking about work, but what is the whole pie chart? And what does that ambition look like? And what is contentment look like alongside of it so that we don't live a life kind of always not yet. Right. Or always feeling the not yet. And then the second thing that stands out to me about what you said was the role that leaders play in creating culture and practices on teams where their teams can step into the wholeness of that and too. 

Cause I could see right ambitious leaders could drive a team very much on one side of the and of that. But to say it is our intention to be both ambitious and hold contentment in the lives that we have and we're going to create culture for that, that doesn't accidentally work that way. Cause the drive that you have could just drive. yeah. Right. That thing needs a seatbelt.

Erica 
I could be dangerous if left unchecked

Erica 
Absolutely. Yes. I you know, I don't know that I have a a magic answer for that. I just know over the years it was very important to me, probably ten years ago, of figuring out how to have a successful business that earned a profit and we are profitable and have been year over year. We may not be breaking huge revenue goals, but they're good goals that we're meeting.

But at the same time, we're creating this workspace where people really like to come to work and they like to be here and they like each other. They like the work that we do. We're very mission driven. And so I it was important for me to create a culture where people wanted to show up. And part of that is just my own life experience. If I am dealing with some stuff with my kids and I can't concentrate, I can't work. I can't I c as sometimes I can power through. I mean, for sure.

Right. You probably picked up on a theme. I can do that.

Heather 
I have a dig deep figure it out button if you have to, but it's a sh

Erica 
it's very short lived. So it's it was important to me to figure out what that looks like. So that looks like hiring moms who want to leave at three to go be with their kids or hiring semi-retired, highly qualified people that want to work 20 hours a week and they'll do whatever we need and we plug them in where we need to. And then hiring our most recent person, our VP of strategic communications, I'll give a plug to Sarah Broberg. She's the Energizer Bunny. And so

She can pick up where my ambition may flag or or fall behind. She can pick that up and keep going and get us to that next level. And that's fantastic. It takes a mix of people, not just any one type.

Heather 
Well, and I'm I'm still holding some of what we said earlier about how we think and feel about this, the what comes from the inside and out and even this overlay that is culture and what we're being told it ought to look like. Or even across us, right? To go, that's what Erica needs to do and wants to do. That's not what my version. So it just this continued nudge I think that I would

invite for everybody is like define your own You know, like what success looks like. So you're even as you're talking about your goals and your targets, right? There's some that are culture related, not only revenue. So again, you spend too much time on the wrong website and you're gonna feel like you're doing it all wrong. so I do think I think that's part of just tools there. Like talk to other people in real life who are figuring things out to go, what are you paying attention to? What's ambition look like for you?

But at the end of the day, you get to decide. Like it's not anybody's job to tell you that there's a right and a wrong way if your most ambition right now is around this garden that you're trying to go in your yard and like go for it. Whatever we say at my house, whatever cranks your tractor. You know? That's what you're into. Fine. 

Erica 
And I love it and and it's taught me a lot, you know. It's it's taught me to experiment and be fearless, but also respect that it may not go well and you're just gonna have to go with the ebb and flow of nature, which is such a slower pace than my pace.

Heather 
So it's a good teacher. Yeah. Patience is definitely not not my gift. I wonder what tools when I think about somebody with the drive that you have, and you know, we're setting these goals, we're reaching these targets. Like contentment when, because we talked a second ago about how sometimes ambition leads to contentment. We're gonna do the thing and then we're gonna feel good about it. What's contentment in the and look like in

I'm gonna call it failure. Like when we don't do the thing. When I have great ambition or drive about this and it doesn't work out. I don't know if you have any wisdom to offer us there around, you know, sometimes if they're too if they're tied too close to each other.

Erica 
Well, yeah, that's the thing. If that that contentment seems so I don't know what the word is, playful and easy and fun, but it's not necessarily but if you put if I put I won't talk about you, but if I put too much ambition into seeking the contentment, it becomes a very unhealthy cycle. Yeah. And then I've not really gained anything and I feel kind of

not at a loss, but just I I have to do a a gut check and a w a welfare check on myself and say, Hey girl, what what are you doing here? Like why don't you take a walk without listening to the podcast? Why don't you take a walk without timing your steps on Strava? Why don't you just go sit outside and or maybe when you go on a hike, it's not a a death march. It's a hike where you stop and you look at flowers. You look at you It you try and name the birds. I'm also into birding because that's

Heather 
Right.

Erica 
Yep. I have not not gotten a weighted vest. I'm not going to. I trying to do things without it being measured. Mm. And I think as an ambitious person, you're always measuring, especially as a business owner, you're always measuring and tracking. That's interesting. So don't measure it. Just let it be and let it and and I mean, trust me, it's hard for me to turn off measurement entirely. So I am like, well, I did

Erica 
You know, I went outside and I didn't have my phone. It was great. I've removed Instagram off my phone. I've done things, you know, and but I just have to be careful not to make it performative. And that's I think I talked with you about journaling. And that sort of practice of gratitude and writing having a gratitude journal. It repelled me, quite honestly, because I felt like it was gonna become performative. Like I'm so grateful for the chair and I'm grateful for the rug that I you know.

I'm like, okay, great. I've run out of things that I'm grateful for. So now I'm gonna talk about the wall. But I then flipped to something I of course listened to some podcast and gave me an idea, but it was more on reflection. So it was just whatever the hell I was feeling that day. Yeah. And I wrote it out and I processed it that way rather than spewing it at someone else or and there's nothing wrong with that either, talking to your partner or your friend or whatever. But reflections really forced me to get out of my head. and kind of look at something in a different light. And some days I don't do it, you know. And so that was also where I tried to make sure I gave myself grace. I think I did it for twenty one days straight just to start Yes. And then it kept up for a while and then it stopped. Life got busy. But then I pick it back up, you know, at least weekly, but I'm not counting anymore.

Heather 
Of course you know that. huh. Yeah.

Heather 
Y'all, this feels so important. I am not wired this way, but I feel like I can just imagine all of my ambition friends, really ambitious and driven friends and colleagues, especially because every day we're giving you new tools to measure things. Yes. All the wearables and all of the ways that you can track yourself, or even you're doing a fun dance class, but you're tracking the all the things that are burning or happening or whatever else. So just this invitation, this lesson that you're sharing about.

For everybody that's really data driven and measuring and seeking and competitive, just do some stuff that you're not measuring. Right. Don't measure it. We're not in a contest. Nope. And then you also, as you were talking and describing it a minute ago, you're like, hey girlfriend, like this little self-talk that you have about maybe we can calm down, like just a little bit to help interrupt. Because it does have this scent, right? That this ambition, this drive that just feels like your pace.

Erica 
Right. Don't measure it.

Heather 
you have to intentionally, I think, interrupt that in some way. 

Erica 
Yeah, you do. And if you don't, life's gonna interrupt it for you. And that won't feel good. And I had that happen a few years back with a family health crisis and it did put the ambition on ice. It just said, You're gonna kinda calm down for a while and focus on this. And that I think probably was the pivotal moment three years ago where I just decided, Okay, it's fine to have the ambition.

But don't lose sight of what's really important. Make sure your ambition is supporting what's important and helping you there, but don't let it overtake it and be in charge and honor that people in your life may need something else than

Heather
It's such an important you know, I said a minute ago that after Helene and my ambition and then you gave that example and I just wrote, crisis pauses ambition beyond the ambition of being fully present with what needs you most, which in those moments, crisis shows you what matters. And it's probably have nothing to do with your revenue target. Right. It tends for me, tends to be family, in follow up to, you know, crisis of all sorts, but that And that again, the releasing of should around that. Like, you should be doing this, you should be here. Nope. It gets really clear in moments like that what needs your attention. And so you just lean in, you lean in hard. So yeah, it's a good point that sometimes I talk about being intentional, but that life sometimes draws the pushes the pause button for us.

Erica 
Yeah. Yeah, and I you know, to think that I want to embrace mediocrity It's almost like a dirty word, but sometimes I need to just kind of be okay with okay and I that's just that's okay. I know

Heather 
Okay.

Heather 
This is a tricky one for me because I think as I think about being a recovering perfectionist, for a long time I'm like, well, what is the middle? Like, what are we talking about? What is enough? And it's a tricky thing. And I think that's what contentment is. That's what it means to me, is like, what is enough? I don't the word mediocrity like gets under It does. It's chafy for me because it

Erica 
What does that look like?

Heather 
I don't think what we're saying is 'cause you're not putting out junk content. No. And I that's I know, but we I feel like we need other but I do think this is what we tell ourselves. Mm-hmm. Right? That slowing down the dial from a hundred to ninety eight means that we're now settling true for mediocrity. So I just want to challenge the mental model to say, okay, what really is quality still? Like what are we really dialing down?

Erica 
No, I mean

Erica 
Yeah, great concept.

Erica 
Recalibrate what quality means.

Heather 
Well, or what are we dialing down? Right. Because is it actually that the quality of what you're producing is changing or you're just now gonna do it for twenty people instead of twenty three people? Right. Like I doubt that you're actually dialing down quality

Erica 
That doesn't happen. I don't think quality gets dialed down. Maybe it's the I think for me it's the recognition that I don't have to do it all. That I actually will have greater contentment if I share the load.

Heather 
I let some We're talking now about letting go, not about mediocrity.

Erica 
That’s right. It's it's trusting that from the loading of the dishwasher to writing a press release or writing a content plan or a com strategy, there are other people who can do it. May not look the same.

Heather 
Right. And a hodgepodge loaded dishwasher is actually okay.

Erica 
It's gonna get clean, correct. Yeah. It just might drive me nuts. Right. But but I've you know, it's okay. Yeah. But I think that's that could be that can be how I dial it back. Mm. Is that I'm not trying to control the outcome or control the process and allowing or seeking, not even allowing help, but seeking help from others.

Heather 
Just looks too.

Heather 
Well, and knowing it feels like inherent in that is what are the things that do uniquely need me. It's not the dishwasher. No. 'Cause truly the output of that the quality is not gonna be impacted by how we do it. Mm-hmm. Now somebody arguably there's some things. Right. If you put put the bowls upright and they fill up right, there are s there is a boundary there, but there are things that like I think sometimes I treat all things equ like they all matter the same.

Erica 
Nothing matters.

Heather 
Everything matters. You know, I have these moments where I get real meta. I'm like, everything matters and nothing matters. I'm like, geez. but when you get into it, part of the discernment around that is not just I need to let go of things, but figuring out what they are. Mm-hmm. What does at whatever the stage of growth you're in or team you're in or family situation, what needs you. Cause I think what does feel true to me is

in my experience, the intensity and I would probably call it intensity, the intensity with which I show up for things. Mm-hmm. Because I think mine's less about goals and more just about that full push of energy toward things. And I tend to be intense about whatever it is that I decide to do. And I've learned you can't be that intense about every single thing. You'll burn right on out. Mm-hmm. It's like a firework with lots of, you know, energy is how do I want to get differently focused? If I'm going to be that intense.

Erica 
yeah.

Heather 
It's gonna I have to push it at work and directly with my kids. It's not gonna be being the soccer mom and the PTO president and all these other things because I will do that with an intensity that I can't sustain. Right. And it'll mean I have to sacrifice something else. So yeah, I think reaching out to others, but about about what?

Erica 
Right, right. And I think as I've become more in tune with what brings me contentment, I fiercely protect that. And so I've had to discern what is that what is what, contentment or

Heather 
What is it?

What br like what have you learned over time like brings you real

Erica 
Well, to not be on all the time. things will be okay. I mean, I for my crisis comms clients out there, I'm certainly on for you.

Heather
All the time.

Erica 
But there are other people too that can support me. making sure when I'm at home, I'm at home with my family. if I don't want to go to a thing, I don't have to go to that thing. Right. It's okay. They'll they won't even miss me. It'll it'll be okay. And and I know this sa this just sounds overly sort of trite, but or or just sort of the the cultural norm right now of just

seeking out things and people that bring me joy. But that is part of it. And making sure I find time for those people and things, be it puttering around my garden or going for a walk with a friend or by myself. Mm-hmm. Making sure I I have time for that. During the summer I try and take Fridays off. It's really hard. And I've had one so far. I've had two Fridays, one of which I did work. That's okay.

Heather 
Nice.

Erica 
And so it's it's a process, but really trying to protect it where it makes sense. Sometimes I may need to do the thing for whatever reason.

Heather 
I think so much for me when I think about what makes me feel contentment, it probably is more process related. It's more slowing down enough just to notice. Right. Cause even if I'm really feeling content about work and I'm feeling content, I'm I'm still just too busy doing the thing, going even if it's all the fun stuff, going to the party, go hanging out with the kids, watching the movie. So I'm still just doing. And I think part of feeling contentment.

Is just slowing down, literally to pause and acknowledge whether in journal or quiet or something else, it is a slowing down to just notice. Like it's simple as that. It really is a noticing. Cause even in a busy, I can be in kind of a crazy busy surrounded by a bunch of people at work and just have a moment to go, this is awesome. Yeah. You know, like.

Erica 
Yeah.

Heather 
I'm living the thing that I wanted to be doing right now. It's it's like an it's almost just a soak it's like a soaking in. It

Erica 
It is it's it's a it's a a feeding of whatever my soul needs at that point too. So trust me, going to Target is not high on my list of contentment. But if my daughter wants to spend time with me and we're going to Target, that's contentment because I'm I'm getting that time with her. So that's feeding that desire to have that one on one time with her before she leaves to go to school.

Heather 
And then we're paying attention. Yeah. So I think it's the combination. It's what are the things that bring you contentment? Yeah. And then are you actually realizing that they're bringing you contentment? Because I think we can be doing do you clock it? So whatever that takes is how do I actually clock? Like, because I think we can be seeking so hard that we don't notice that we are feeling the thing that we're seeking. hold on, ambition. I know I'm holding you, but let me just take a second to go.

Erica 
Yeah.

Erica 
Right.

Heather 
I'm in here right now talking to Erica in this office and this is awesome. Yeah. Even though I'm also thinking about fifty other things that are coming next and what else has to come after this meeting and all of that. So I just as a tool, the pause button. Mm-hmm. And this is not a plug, but y'all know we sell pause buttons. that's like the little pause just to notice where you do already feel the thing and have the thing that you're seeking. Mm-hmm. What other tools if we think about how to help people hold

Erica 
It's great thing.

Heather 
'Cause I think you and I both share from this, even though you're wired with a deeper push, I think, than I have. Mine kind of comes and go a little bit more. We're both honoring whatever's true for us and trying to sort out other people's shoulds and shake those off. We're holding both contentment and ambition. Anything else that comes up for you about how, the how of it, like tips, tools for how to hold both of those.

together.

Erica 
Hmm.

Erica 
see what I ha I don't know. I d I the how of it I think

For me it has to begin with the recognition that you might need that. You might need to hold those two or you might need to have that balance to just recognize

Heather 
Because even that both of those exist can exist together. Yeah.

Erica 
Yeah. And for each individual, I think that's going to be highly unique because of their life, because of their family or friend structure or business or work. So I don't know that I have any magic answer there other than recognizing both can exist and then prioritizing what you feel like is going to bring you contentment. And then like you've said, pausing and and seeing it. And

I do think that it boils down to being present. And meditation is very important to me and and trying to be present and learning more about the ways I can do that, that it doesn't have to happen on the quote sit, you know, if you're sitting for a meditation. It can be present just walking around or sitting here talking to you, being present and noticing and thinking through how are these things showing up. And the more I've done that.

and try to be present and just slow it down. It's it becomes part of the foundation or the undercurrent that helps me to be more content, if that makes sense.

Heather 
it's it's almost think about it right it's like a muscle though I do I do feel like you know as you get in a practice of either through a struggle like a time of day like I'm a journaler also this is the time of day that I really do kind of let the snow globe settle and let the day settle into me and and reflect on it or during your walk I think as you build in those rhythms

Erica 
It's not in

Heather 
it can create a foundation or just the pr some of those practices I think do feel muscle may not be the right metaphor, but as something that gets a little more automatic, I guess. Like it takes some more effort to kind of get going, but then feels like it maybe settles in a little bit differently. Something you just said too reminds me that

You know, I can imagine there are people listening who are like, Great, I'm glad y'all know what makes you feel content. I don't really know 'cause I know I like this and I don't like I think there are times where and I said it in the beginning, one of the places where I can get stuck is like, I don't really know what I want right now. Mm-hmm. Right? You're in a life stage and you're like, I do I wanna you feel some kind of unease. You're like, Do I wanna launch a business? Do I wanna make this bigger? Do I wanna

Like let it all go and craft at the house. Like I sometimes I'm like, I could go either way. Which way is this head? It's sometimes hard for me to figure out. So I do want to just acknowledge supportive people, coaches, business coaches, therapists, all kind of other folks who can help walk alongside you as you're trying to sort out. Especially like we were saying, it gets real tangly in our head sometimes to figure out is this my voice or is this.

You know, my sixth grade teacher's voice, or is this the voice that I heard on the podcast telling me what all responsible business owners, quote, should be doing right now in the age of tech adoption? Yeah. Right. So f how to figure out what actually is the path that you want to be on, I think is a bigger task than we've maybe given it credit for at this point. So I just want to say another tool is all kind of people who exist and would be happy to help sit.

Erica 
I don't wanna be that person.

Heather 
I just I think back, I think I like various therapists and coaches have helped me figure out what it is that I really want.

Erica 
The people like you for me that can ask questions that you don't think to ask of yourself and just being vulnerable and having those conversations. The last thing I wanna sound like is a podcaster that's telling somebody how to live their life. I don't

Heather 
Everyone's at work.

Erica 
But I think, I think it's important to recognize the construct in which we all live with our phones, with our work, with email. Everything is at us all the time. And and that I I know there are studies that will bear out that that has eroded our ability to be present. It has really negatively impacted our ability to sit and be curious. And I think it's being curious and noticing, be a noticer.

Be curious, ask the questions. Don't just sort of go for me. I have to stop being on autopilot and look and feel and think through. And now as I'm I I have my eye towards retirement, I want to think about well, what does that look like? And what does my life look like in five, 10 years from now? And am I prepared?

Do I have enough money for that? Am I gonna be okay? And also what am I gonna do with my time?

Heather 
Right, where do I put all this ambition energy? It's gonna be walking a marathon. All right, best garden ever.

Erica 
Right. Amazing garden.

Well, I got plans. I wanna take an improv class. I mean, there's all kinds of things I wanna do, but again it's noticing, okay, does that bring me contentment or am I just trying to like fill time? I don't wanna just fill time. Yeah. Sometimes you need to just sit there and be quiet.

Heather 
Yeah.

And I just contentment is such an interesting, I know I'm like bullet pulling it back to the very beginning, but I think just the permission to let these coexist. There's some narrative around ambition. And there's some narrative around contentment that feels like not trying. I mean, it feels like satisfaction, like, you can't be satisfied. Like like the two that they just can't go together because one feels like

stop and one feels like go. So not to be understated like what you just said, like just acknowledging that these two things can go together is a big piece of it.

Erica 
I think so. And and what if it's all about acceptance too? Yeah. And accepting this is where we are and am I okay with that?

Heather 
And whether you're okay like it we are here. I think acceptance is the first step of all of it, even if you're gonna seek to do something about it because you are where you are. There's a card, we do some activities when we facilitate often there's a card deck that We and Me creates, Chad Littlefield's group. On the back of one of them is a quote that says something like, Start from where you are, not where you wish you were. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so much of that,

Erica 
It's just accepting it.

Erica 
Yeah, because where you are may be a place where you don't have a lot of energy to put into more and more and more. So it's it's just always a good idea. I tell my daughter and my son this when you don't have the answer, you don't know what to do, sometimes it's better just to do nothing. Don't make a decision. Just do nothing.

Heather
if we could do a whole nother episode on the dance of I don't know. Yeah. And sitting with like, okay, it's okay to just not know for right now. Like permission to not know. Mm-hmm. Cause I think as problem solvers, as doers, as especially as figure it out folks, this what do I want? Do I want more ambition? Do I not? Like we can drive that question right into the ground.

Or wrap it with a thousand other questions. I trust that when I need to know I will figure it out. Yeah. Oof. I don't know is a hard win. I feel like I'm hearing some construction sounds in the background. Great.

Erica 
Now it's okay.

Erica 
It's seventh Avenue. There's always something under

Heather
Perfect. So if y'all hear construction in the background, you are correct. It is us, not you. And it'll be fine. So wanna see. So journaling for me, honoring the seasons, I think, is just a piece of this for me, is the allowing. Mm-hmm. Allowing ambition to be present or not at the scale that it is or not, contentment the same, and honoring there is a seasonality.

Erica 
I think that's very smart. Yeah.

Heather 
It doesn't mean, I'm now failing at small business because for right now I'm just not feeling very ambitious. Right. You know, you feel how you feel and it's okay. I think there are little things, like really practical little things I do too. We've mainly talked today about needing to try to get a handle on ambition. There are times for me that I need to kind of pump myself up where it's not actually contentment. It's I'm not in action.

because of fear or something else where I need to kind of pull myself out of. So that's just something else to look out for. It's like, are you really content? Or for me, is it I'm afraid or I'm trying, you know, kind of this smallness or hide or I'm hiding. Yeah. you know, you were actually some you're a good nudger in this way. I remember when I came to you for I was working on website or rebrand and I wouldn't tell anybody who my clients were.

I didn't want to put them on the webs. You're like, you have to put the them on the website. Like so these are things it you know, I would have said, I'm fine. Like I'm fine. I'm content with how it is. Right. And it really was not from a pla that wasn't really the situation. It was from a place of I think fear of putting out to everyone for their viewing and opinions what I was up to. So I have to challenge sometimes the contentment side too. So in those cases, you know.

For me, I'm a big reader. There are books on either side. There are books that'll help me calm down. There are books that'll help me step into what I know I really want. Yep. I'm somebody who will put a sticky note on my computer to remind myself, like you're telling yourself, calm down. I'll put a sticky note with whatever the issue de jour is that I'm having that I need to stay on the path that I know I want to be on. I even have on the strategy grid that I create for us about who we're serving and how. There's a little note on the top that stays there that's something like, You're enough already.

Just show up and figure it out. Like any way that I need to plant in this, yes, we are enough. This is enough. And there is more. So I'm not kind of fighting in the inside.

Erica 
Well, and I love how you acknowledge that and you're you're putting tools or or prompts or supports in place to keep yourself on that track that you think you need to be on or that you wanna be on. Right, 'cause yeah.

Heather 
it is, I mean, the I guess that means there an element of this is just what is the account of how do I put accountability? This is we haven't talked about this is a whole nother talk too, but when you're the leader of an organization like this, you you and I are both business structures where there's not a board holding you accountable, right? It's you. So you have to figure out right what you need to do to keep on the path that you say you want to be on. And I've had to do all kinds of little

packs along the way to keep myself either moving or slowed down, depending on what I what I need. So sometimes I guess just to say sometimes, y'all, it's really little. Whatever it takes and whatever you think that you're gonna need.

Erica 
Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to I was I was gonna share in the many years that I've been doing this over time I've trusted my internal barometer or instinct for when it's time to push hard and go and when it's time to just sit sit tight. And there are a lot of factors that play into that. And it's not just me and my ambition.

It's do I have the right team to push? Do I have confidence in the market to push? Or is it better is this a gross period for our team internally and we need to just keep working on some processes internally before we try and go after yet another wrong on the ladder?

Heather 
It's a great point. Is what does even the put you know, we think that push it looks a certain way, but what does it really take? I think of Jenga, the game. Yeah. And you know, the like what blocks can we actually move right now? And ambition sometimes can just feel like like push a block. Like you can, but you're gonna push the whole tower down. Right. So what blocks can move? And then I wanna pull out what you said too, to make sure that we sit in for a second that you trust

I didn't capture exactly what you said, but something about trusting your intuition. Mm-hmm. So just as a piece of all of this, when I said you're creating what you want this to look like, sometimes it's fast, sometimes it's slow. It doesn't look like anybody else's. Trusting your intuition again for me is something that's easier said than done and so important. It

Erica 
Is. Well, i it has been for me. Yeah. And and again, it's I think it was how I was raised and how I watched my parents mm build their businesses and and be successful at life and what they do. Sometimes that instinct may be wrong and you have to acknowledge that. But for the most part, if I as my mom would say, just get quiet and listen to your instinct. So her mind, that get quiet means

Heather 
I love this mom. Thank you for that.

Erica 
Shut out all the noise. However, it's always balanced with taking as much data and fact as you can, then shut out all the noise. Look at what's important to you. Do you really want to spend an extra ten hours a week grinding it out, pushing for this goal? Or do you need to maybe spend those time that time at home right now? And maybe that'll come later. And I you know, that's just my approach. Yeah. It's not

necessarily the the solid business approach everyone needs to follow. But that's

Heather 
Yeah, I think everybody's gonna have a different approach to this. you know, Apple watch your heart out if that's your jam. Whoever's listening. I'm somebody who's too I just I think I get too obsessive. I'm like, I can't be monitoring because I would be like, Well, I'm th for forty steps away, let me run around the building. And I just can't. It's too much for me. But no matter how we slice this, it keeps coming back in some way to me to notice it like a quietness.

Erica 
Noticing and being

Heather 
Which is interesting for the two of us who probably don't come across as particularly slow and quiet to say this is what it takes to help balance out. Mm-hmm. And to listen and soak in and and balance the and out. I love yeah, your mom's guidance. Get quiet and listen to your intuition. Mm-hmm.

I think that's a lovely place to tie this up unless you have something else that you just wish you would have said and you had in your mind that we haven't covered yet.

Erica 
No, I think there's a danger now if I go too far off script.

Heather 
Okay, great. The the messaging the messaging expert says I have have covered enough. Thank you for being up for this. This is our first experiment with bringing our materials on the road. So it's perfect that there's construction in background. The things that you can't prepare for. Yeah. And that we just figure it out. And you yeah, cheers to acceptance, cheers to figuring it out.

Erica 
You accept

Heather 
Thanks all of you all for listening. I hope you'll let me know what resonates with you. And in particular, what feels helpful is if something resonates with you or you enjoyed this podcast, share it with somebody else. We're not doing a lot to follow algorithms on social media to get followers and do all those things. I really believe that a lot of growth can come from genuine value that gets shared one person at a time. So appreciate you helping us get the word out. And we'll see you next time. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Erica. Thank you.

Erica 
Thank you.

Heather 
The Stand in the And podcast is supported by Human Centered Strategy, where we help leaders and teams build connection and strategy and complexity so that everyone can flourish. To learn more or to work with us, please visit us online at human centered strategy dot com or message me on LinkedIn.